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Post by JKCarrier on May 29, 2015 20:35:58 GMT -5
Toth was so angry at Colletta's evisceration of his pencils that he swore he would never work for Stan Lee or Marvel again and, to the best of my knowledge, he never did. Toth did a Space Ghost story during the brief period when Marvel had the Hanna-Barbera license. But I guess that could have been leftover inventory from Gold Key or somebody: www.comics.org/issue/76407/ |
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Post by Farrar on May 29, 2015 21:02:08 GMT -5
That's very interesting. I didn't know any of those facts regarding the Kirby layouts. I just assumed, since artists like Romita, Colan*, etc. had worked for Timely/Atlas during the Golden Age, that they simply returned to the fold and continued to work. Apparently not. Did Everett and Wood also proceed from Kirby layouts?
Great question! As far as I know, Wood didn't work over Kirby during his '60s stint with Marvel. But Everett did, on the Tales to Astonish Hulk series in 1966. Even though many of the artists were indeed industry veterans, they weren't used to working without a full script and/or couldn't deliver exactly what Stan wanted in terms of storytelling/pacing/dynamism. They "learned" by working over Kirby layouts until Stan was satisfied--at which point they "graduated" and flew solo. |
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Post by MDG on May 31, 2015 8:37:05 GMT -5
Toth was so angry at Colletta's evisceration of his pencils that he swore he would never work for Stan Lee or Marvel again and, to the best of my knowledge, he never did. Toth did a Space Ghost story during the brief period when Marvel had the Hanna-Barbera license. But I guess that could have been leftover inventory from Gold Key or somebody: www.comics.org/issue/76407/There are at least a couple of Toth stories in the Marvel B&W magazines in the 70s, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were things he did on his own and sold rather than as an assignment. |
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Post by the4thpip on May 31, 2015 12:41:25 GMT -5
Toth did a Space Ghost story during the brief period when Marvel had the Hanna-Barbera license. But I guess that could have been leftover inventory from Gold Key or somebody: www.comics.org/issue/76407/There are at least a couple of Toth stories in the Marvel B&W magazines in the 70s, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were things he did on his own and sold rather than as an assignment. Can you imagine what Toth could have done for Mar-Vell, or the X-Men? |
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Post by Farrar on Jun 2, 2015 22:32:09 GMT -5
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 3, 2015 8:32:36 GMT -5
Those are pretty sweet! Did any of that make production? Or is that before the HERBIE version of the cartoon? I remember the early 80s Hanna Barbera, but that's before my time  |
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Post by MDG on Jun 3, 2015 9:34:20 GMT -5
There was a mid-60s FF cartoon using Toth's designs and adapting many of the original stories (somewhat cleaned up--e.g. The Red Ghost is just a cranky old guy with an accent, not a communist.)
I think they're all on YouTube.
I was watching them as I was reading FF Essentials Vol 1 a few weeks ago. I also listened to a few of the 70s radio shows, which also use the comics as a source. Unfortunately, whoever adapted them didn't seem to realize that in radio, some things have to be explained pretty explicitly--I don't know if people who weren't familiar with the FF would get what's going on some of the time.
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Post by Farrar on Jun 3, 2015 9:57:33 GMT -5
Those are pretty sweet! Did any of that make production? Or is that before the HERBIE version of the cartoon? I remember the early 80s Hanna Barbera, but that's before my time Yes, Toth did all the character designs for the 1967 FF cartoon, not just the for villains shown in the link but also for the FF themselves. Naturally he used the Kirby issues as a guide--a great example is the young unmasked Dr. Doom in Toth's sketch, which is based on Kirby's young Doom shown in Annual #2 (Doom's origin story). As MDG notes, the cartoon used plots from the actual comics, with some changes. One example besides MDG's is the Silver Surfer episode--in the cartoon it's Sue not Alicia who talks the Surfer into helping mankind (Alicia was not included in the 1967 series). In the last couple of years I've watched these on YouTube--for me these cartoons are very nostalgic, as they were my introduction to the FF, before the comics. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 3, 2015 10:44:50 GMT -5
Neat! I'll have to check those out some time!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 12:54:01 GMT -5
Neat! I'll have to check those out some time! they are pretty darn good cartoons back in those days and I do watch them once in a while for fun and enjoyment. Hightly recommended. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 3, 2015 22:17:52 GMT -5
 X-Men #13 Lee/Kirby/Galvin/Sinnott 'Where Walks the Juggernaut' Plot: Picking up RIGHT after last issue, the Juggernaut has scattered the X-Men, and the Professor is ready to make a stand.. he does his thing he does... and it doesn't work. Jean and Scott quickly spring into action, with Jean picking Jugs up long enough for Scott to did a really deep hole to drop him in. The Professor runs off to his lab to build a Mento Helmet to amplify his power, and and the rest of the team (except for Jean, who he keeps hanging out with him for no particular reason) to keep Juggernaut busy. They do so in shifts, not really hurting him, but keeping him busy... with Beast even activating the Danger Room to slow him down. The professor tests his gizmo, and sends out a mental wave all throughout NY, which contacts Daredevil (whose too busy in court) and Human Torch (who thinks it's a trick). The Professor realizes that he could use the help, and stops to call the Torch again, who comes by to lend a hand. After the Mento Helmet is done maximizing the Professor's power, he has the Torch blind Juggernaut, then Angel take his helmet (after Beast 'loosened' it), and then is able to mind zap him for the win. Ever concerned with his secret identity as a weird old guy who teaches in a mutant school, and NOT a mutant at all, he mind wipes the Torch before he goes (such gratitude). Finally, we're treated to a scene with the boys all in the infirmary with Nurse Jean helping them out... the end! Rating: 5/5 - I bit nonsensical in parts, but still awesome story telling Notes: -- Jean at one point sort sounds like she has a crush on the Professor now.. no mooning over Scott at all -- Jean's powers seem pretty consistently better now, which begs the question, why didn't she help out? More importantly, why didn't she just whip the helmet off? -- It seemed pretty silly to see Cyclops and Angel GRAPPLING a guy that just plowing through all their defenses, but it shows their heart -- The deperation and last gasp defenses the X-Men put up is really well done.. it definitely FEELS alot more hopeless and dangerous than past issues. -- I love how the Professor has to keep his powers a secret, yet the military calls him for help sometimes. (issues 1 and 4 I think) -- The last page with the infirmary is almost is awesome as the dinner scene a few issues ago... more of those, please -- The Juggernaut as a 'force aura' that just pushes things away from him.. not sure that ever is used again. He also has a VERY pointy head (that might be the artist, though)... he also has a very small head. Quite different from his later 'iconic' look. |
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Post by Farrar on Jun 4, 2015 9:41:45 GMT -5
X-Men #13 Lee/Kirby/Gavin/Sinnott 'Where Walks the Juggernaut'... The pencil artist here--again, over Kirby layouts--was Werner Roth, using the pseudonym "Jay Gavin" (I believe these are his sons' names). Roth had done a lot of work for Stan during the 1950s Atlas days--western comics, Lorna the Jungle Girl, and others. At this point in time (early 1960s) Roth was doing some romance comic work for DC, so like several other early-mid 1960s Marvel artists back then he started out using a pen name for the Marvel credits--he didn't want to anger DC and risk having them cut off his romance comic assignments. Mark Evanier has a great column on the pseudonyms used by artists during that time: www.newsfromme.com/iaq/iaq05/Anyway, another very entertaining summary & review, Wildfire2099. Really enjoying this thread. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 4, 2015 10:47:57 GMT -5
Thanks! I was pretty sure it was Werner Roth, but I figured it made sense to list what is actually credited in the comic. That's a nice, quick, succinct article, too, great reference!
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Post by paulie on Jun 4, 2015 12:23:31 GMT -5
I'd like to make a bold statement: The problem with Silver Age X-Men, and we are indeed about 7 issues away from capital P-problems, was never Werner Roth. Mr. Roth was in fact well-suited to drawing teenagers. I especially like his Johnny Storm in this issue though Sinnott helped that quite a bit. More on what I perceived as the problems when we get there... (Hint, Nascent Roy Thomas, John Tartag!)
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 4, 2015 12:46:27 GMT -5
Counterpoint: It was Werner Roth. I love, love, LOVE his jungle girl stuff, but his style is simply more suited to material that was a little more risque, darker, and sexier. He was wasted on post-code superheroes.
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