shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 17, 2014 11:53:54 GMT -5
Interesting to see how this conversation has progressed. As for the original question, shax's point is only true if you discount Kryptonians, Martians, Rannians, Thanagarians and Htraeans (Bizarros). Cei-U! I summon the galactic directory! Kryptonians -- Not really the same since this was directly connected to Superman's legacy, not some outside presence beyond the original scope of the series. Martians -- Other than J'onn Jonez, were they a presence at DC at the time? Granted, Dell had M.A.R.S. Patrol: Total War, but that was more about a band of alien conquerors with an immediate presence on Earth than a separate culture/society out there in the cosmos. Rannians -- I didn't consider Adam Strange a superhero, but fair enough. Still, that's (again) central to the character and premise; not an outside culture/society. Thanagarians -- see above Htraeans -- Okay. You got me on this one. Excellent call. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 17, 2014 11:56:20 GMT -5
If alien dimensions count, the Weaponeers of Qward were a recurring enemy in Green Lantern. Another good call. Too bad the Qwardians never went on to have the kind of presence in the DCU that the Skrulls did in the MU. I get what Shaxper is saying though. That is a very significant step in the Marvel Age. It's a keystone issue in that regard. I never would've thought of that. Thanks! |
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Post by Hoosier X on May 17, 2014 12:05:26 GMT -5
It may be nitpicking, but the Qwardians aren't aliens in the "outer space" sense. They are from an anti-matter universe.
And the Bizarros aren't really "aliens." They were created by Earth technology. (And is Bizarro-Earth on the other side of the sun? Or is it way out in space?)
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Post by Hoosier X on May 17, 2014 12:07:25 GMT -5
I think shaxper is on the right track. But I'm not as knowledgeable about early DC as I am about Marvel. So I could be wrong.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 17, 2014 12:32:32 GMT -5
It may be nitpicking, but the Qwardians aren't aliens in the "outer space" sense. They are from an anti-matter universe. It still expands the scope of the DC Universe, regardless of what plane of existence we're discussing. I'd forgotten that. Yeah, I think that does kill their eligibility in this discussion. Still just an extension of Earth-centric issues. |
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Post by tolworthy on May 17, 2014 15:35:54 GMT -5
Interesting thread. There are a couple of other ways that FF18 may be a historical first. Any comments?
1. The first time a hero's power is precisely measured? We learn that they measure the Thing's limit at five tons.
2. The first time a hero's spirit is permanently broken. If you read all the issues to this point you can see Ben's loss of confidence. From tough guy war hero test pilot, to this, his lowest point, where he acts like a child. The psychology of these issues fascinates me.
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Post by gothos on May 17, 2014 16:33:49 GMT -5
I'll note that throughout the Silver Age no DC comic seemed to represent Mars the same way. Though DC is surely one of the first, if not the first, company to make a Martian into a featured continuing hero, Robert Kanigher represented his Martians as a bunch of bearded guys (sometimes green, at least) who served the Duke of Deception in some stories. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Batman met a Martian or two in the Schiff days that didn't conform to the J'onn version. And futuristic features like TOMMY TOMORROW and SPACE RANGER populated the solar system with all sort of weird critters and races, none of which agreed with one another.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 17, 2014 16:43:15 GMT -5
I'll note that throughout the Silver Age no DC comic seemed to represent Mars the same way. Though DC is surely one of the first, if not the first, company to make a Martian into a featured continuing hero, Robert Kanigher represented his Martians as a bunch of bearded guys (sometimes green, at least) who served the Duke of Deception in some stories. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Batman met a Martian or two in the Schiff days that didn't conform to the J'onn version. And futuristic features like TOMMY TOMORROW and SPACE RANGER populated the solar system with all sort of weird critters and races, none of which agreed with one another. I was thinking This point. maybe they introduced recurring characters but they didn't pay attention to continuity like Marvel did. |
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Post by Action Ace on May 17, 2014 17:16:44 GMT -5
I'll note that throughout the Silver Age no DC comic seemed to represent Mars the same way. Though DC is surely one of the first, if not the first, company to make a Martian into a featured continuing hero, Robert Kanigher represented his Martians as a bunch of bearded guys (sometimes green, at least) who served the Duke of Deception in some stories. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Batman met a Martian or two in the Schiff days that didn't conform to the J'onn version. And futuristic features like TOMMY TOMORROW and SPACE RANGER populated the solar system with all sort of weird critters and races, none of which agreed with one another. Mort Weisinger's views on the matter.  originally published in Adventure Comics #264 (1959) |
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Post by Cei-U! on May 17, 2014 17:19:15 GMT -5
There were seven distinct races of Martians depicted in the context of the (then-) contemporary DC Silver Age (Earth-One) universe:
1 (sentient gorillas) Congo Bill #6 (June 1955)
2 (J'onn J'onzz's people)Detective #225 (November 1955)*
3 (General Tang's people) Blackhawk #124 (May 1958)
4 (Duke of Deception's people) Wonder Woman #104 (December 1958)
5 (three-eyed) Wonder Woman #130 (May 1962)
6 (living spacesuits) Sea Devils #10 (March 1963)
7 (Karmang's people) All-New Collectors Edition #C-58 [Superman Vs. Shazam!] (November 1977)
as well as a species from the past:
1 (orange-skinned semi-humanoids) Rip Hunter # 15
and eight of the future
1 (Legion of Super-Heroes' timeline) Adventure #378
2 (Space Ranger's timeline) Showcase #15**
3 (Star Rovers' timeline) Mystery in Space #77
4-7 (Tommy Tomorrow's timeline) four distinct species introduced in Action #208, 244, 255 and Showcase #41
8 (Unconquerables' timeline) Action #282
Not to mention the five fake Martian races that various humans have posed as:
1 Jimmy Olsen #10 (February 1956)
2 Detective Comics #234 (August 1956)
3 World's Finest #90 (September 1957)
4 Batman #132 (June 1960)
5 Batman #153 (December 1962)
So yeah, not a lot of consistency. (And don't get me started on all the fershlugginer Venusians...)
Cei-U!
I summon the overpopulated red planet!
* J'onn's people come in three colors: green, white, yellow
** I haven't finished indexing the Space Ranger series so there may be more
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Post by Jasoomian on May 17, 2014 18:19:49 GMT -5
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 17, 2014 19:23:57 GMT -5
Interesting, so DC just before the Silver age was specifically AGAINST having a cohesive universe. I guess that part of Stan Lee's (or perhaps, more correctly, Roy Thomas') vision was spot on.. I'm guessing DC was still targeting the very young, trying to capture new reads as they 'age in', while Marvel was trying to keep though readers as they got older.
Makes me wonder what the industry would look like today if DC's model won out.
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Post by maddog1981 on May 17, 2014 20:46:13 GMT -5
They didn't do a cohesive universe because of the turnover of the audience every couple of years. Stan Lee had always wanted to push a more mature narrative style dating back to the Golden Age.
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Post by Phil Maurice on May 17, 2014 22:59:25 GMT -5
They didn't do a cohesive universe because of the turnover of the audience every couple of years. Stan Lee had always wanted to push a more mature narrative style dating back to the Golden Age. But a shared-universe model and a "mature narrative style" are two different things. I don't think anyone doubts that writers like Stan Lee, along with Al Feldstein and Harvey Kurtzman among others, wanted to see comics evolve into a more elevated, literary medium, but Timely had numerous opportunities to exploit the hard-continuity, shared-universe model during the Golden Age and they balked. You can blame it on Martin Goodman and the "turnover" thinking, I suppose, which was what kept most publishers adhering to the status quo.
Is there any evidence beyond Stan's demonstrably faulty memory that he wanted to build a hard-continuity model as far back as the Golden Age?
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Post by maddog1981 on May 18, 2014 7:37:33 GMT -5
No, just interviews he's given. He's mentioned he was told that children and illiterate adults were the only people reading comics.
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