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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Mar 31, 2015 20:27:14 GMT -5
A thought came to mind, and I thought of this little scenario in which we might be able to get first hand life experience on a time of life we weren't around for.
My question isn't all that earth shattering, but I thought about doing research on it, and then thought, maybe it would be more interesting to hear for someone that was there. Whether that was being alive in a certain time, or a certain area, or part of a certain social group or government. Something that's more than just clicking on wikipedia and getting a very sterile account.
My question comes from reading Charles Bukowski. In his novel about his early childhood, Ham On Rye (and in memory flashbacks in other novels) he always refers to school, as grammar school. Was that just a different title for school in general, as kindergarden to high school, or was the school set up different then in the 1920's and 30's here in the US? If it was different was there any posters that went to grammar school?
Anyone from another country is more than welcome to share how schooling is done in their respective countries.
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Post by berkley on Mar 31, 2015 22:50:00 GMT -5
I started Kindergarten in September 1966, I suppose it must have been, AFAIK, up to garde 3 was called primary school, then grades 4 to 6 were called elementary, 7 to 9 was junior high, and 10 and 11 (as far as we went in my day in NL) was high school. I think that's more or less the American nomenclature, isn't it? Except for ending at grade 11, of course.
These classifications were kind of arbitrary, though - more theoretical than real, in that we didn't necessarily change to a new school when we went from, say, elementary to junior high or whatever. For me Kindergarten to grade 5 was in one building, grades 6 to most of grade 8 were in another, the last bit of grade 8 and grade 9 in another (our whole school was moved into a new building). Grades 10 & 11 were in the Protestant high school - we had separate school systems back then for the Protestants and the Catholics.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 22:59:17 GMT -5
Grammar school was simply a term for K-8 (or possibly K-6 in places that did have junior high). Elementary school or middle school as common terms were not in use that I remember as a kid, it was just grammar school. I do remember moving one of the many times we did into a district that did divide it up into elementary and middle school and this was new to me and that was circa '80 or '81. It's a throwback to when school's were smaller, many "grades" shared a classroom and the common theme of the curriculum was learning to read and write properly, hence grammar, and a carryover from the British system of primary education. At least in my experiences and form my vague memories of history of education classes I glazed through as an undergrad.
-M
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Apr 1, 2015 0:44:12 GMT -5
In New York City during the early 1960's. Kindergarten thru 6th grade was called Public School. In fact, the buildings were called PS and then a number. I mostly went to PS 175 in Forest Hills, Queens (maybe Peter Parker went there as well). I would hear the term grammar school from time to time but by then it was out of date. Grades 7 thru 9 was in a different facility and called Junior High. Finally you would go on to High School.
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Post by Dizzy D on Apr 1, 2015 4:57:57 GMT -5
Back when I was a kid, schooling in the Netherlands worked like this:
4-12 years old:
When you are 4 years old you went to Kleuterschool (lit: "Toddler school") and you did that for 2 or 3 years (depending whether you were 4 years old before or after october 30)
After that you went to Lagere School (lit: "Lower School") for 6 years.
While I was going through Lagere School, they changed the system: at 4 years old, you start Basis School (Basic School) and that takes 8 years.
12- 16/18 years old:
Depending on your school results, there are several forms of Middelbaar Onderwijs (lit. Medium or Middle Education) or Voortgezet Onderwijs (lit. Continued Education) (and they change names all the damn time, so I'm bit out of date on them). It was possible to start with one of the "lower" forms and after graduating, do some of the higher forms (after graduation from MAVO for instance, you could start HAVO in the fourth year IIRC:
- Praktijk Onderwijs (Practical Education): this is as far as I know the lowest form of middle school. Generally for teenagers with learning difficulties. Lessons are mostly concentrated on getting the teenager some job experience, ending with a internship at some workspace. I believe there is no set length.
- Lager Beroeps Onderwijs (Lower Professional Education), : Generally for teenager with learning difficulties in some areas, there are various paths within and they tend to focus on preparing the student for specific jobs. Length was 4 years.
- Middelbaar Algemeen Voortgezet Onderwijs (Medium General Continued Education): Intended for average students, also for 4 years. It had a more general purpose education than LBO, but somehow it never really worked: if you wanted to get a specific job, LBO usually worked better. MAVO really required a continued education after graduation and many streamed through to HAVO (see below). So LBO and MAVO got merged into VMBO during my youth and became VMBO (Voortgezet Middelbaar Beroeps Onderwijs, lit. Continued Medium Professional Education) which combines the strengths of both (VMBO itself has several subcategories, but I'm not going in them).
- Hoger Algemeen Voortget Onderwijs (Higher General Continued Education): Intended for students who did very well in basic school. It's also a general purpose education with a wide variety of languages, scientific and social education. Length is 5 years.
- Voorbereidend Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs (Preparing Scientific Education): Intended for those who want to go on to University basically. With 6 years it's one year more than HAVO and they get a few subjects that HAVO didn't get (or at least not to that exact measure). Informally divided into Athaneum and Gymnasium (the only difference being that Gymnasium also got classes in classic Greek and Latin.)
16 years and older.. or more after graduating middle school
After finishing one of those, you either go to work (as long as you're 18 years or older. 16 or 17 still have to go to school, though they may work for a limited amount) or go to higher education. As MAVO, HAVO and VWO didn't really teach any practical skills, you usually needed to go one of these to get an actual job:
Middelbaar Beroeps Onderwijs (Medium Professional Education): Basically continuing from VMBO (or before that from MAVO) to focus on subjects that are relevant to a specific profession.
Hoger Beroeps Onderwijs (Higher Professional Education) aka Hogeschool (lit. High School, but it's basically a form of university, think polytechnic or university of applied sciences). Graduate and you can call yourself an Engineer (Ing.)
Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs (Scientific Education) aka University. Graduate and you can call yourself Docterandus (Drs.), Engineer (Ir.) (yes, the title is the same, the acronym isn't)
HBO and WO are usually combined as "Higher Education" and many VWO students chose to go to HBO rather than WO because its education can fit better with their choice of profession. University tends to be spend a bit more time on the theoretical parts of your selected area. These days graduates from both can use the english titles (Master of Science/MSc, Master of Arts etc.)
Post-Higher Education
Once you have graduated from university you can put in the time for a postdoc (PhD.) and call yourself Doctor (for the scientific studies). Specific other paths (law, medschool) have their own requirements and titles.
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Post by Farrar on Apr 1, 2015 8:07:54 GMT -5
LOL, I'd never even heard the term "middle school" until relatively recently, a few years ago. Back in my day grades 7-9 were called "junior high" and grades 10-12 were "high school."
But as I went to a school that encompassed 7 through 12th grades, and the official name of the school was ________ High School, I always refer to those days as "when I was in high school" even when I really mean, say, 8th grade.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Apr 1, 2015 8:38:58 GMT -5
Wow thanks for all the responses. Seems education structures have really changed in this country. When I was in school in St Louis MO, elementary was K-6, junior high was 7 & 8 and high school was 9-12. Thanks for the lengthy insight Dizzy. That's quite a interesting education system there. I started Kindergarten in September 1966, I suppose it must have been, AFAIK, up to garde 3 was called primary school, then grades 4 to 6 were called elementary, 7 to 9 was junior high, and 10 and 11 (as far as we went in my day in NL) was high school. I think that's more or less the American nomenclature, isn't it? Except for ending at grade 11, of course. These classifications were kind of arbitrary, though - more theoretical than real, in that we didn't necessarily change to a new school when we went from, say, elementary to junior high or whatever. For me Kindergarten to grade 5 was in one building, grades 6 to most of grade 8 were in another, the last bit of grade 8 and grade 9 in another (our whole school was moved into a new building). Grades 10 & 11 were in the Protestant high school - we had separate school systems back then for the Protestants and the Catholics.Was there a difference in education because of the differing religious views? Or just plain segregation? |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 1, 2015 10:19:52 GMT -5
In the U.S. from about 1900 on, grammar school and elementary school were pretty much synonymous and usage varied geographically. I entered first grade in Idaho in 1974 (I missed the deadline and was one of the oldest in my class). We called it grade school. But my Dad called it grammar school and my Mom called it elementary school. That was 1-6. 7-9 was Junior High and 10-12 was high school. Except that the year I went to the high school they also brought the Freshmen back to the high school because the grade schools were overcrowded and the Jr. Highs became 6-8. I don't think I heard the term Middle School until some time in the late 90s.
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Post by Hoosier X on Apr 1, 2015 13:26:04 GMT -5
I started kindergarten in 1969 and I always heard the term "elementary school" for the lower grades. But I do remember "grammar school" as a phrase that "old people" used. ("Old people" meaning anybody over 30.)
And they were using the phrase "middle school" in the 1970s, at least they did in my Indiana school district. I went to fifth grade in a small-town elementary school. They built a consolidated high school in the country situated between four or five small towns (the largest was 3000 people) in the 1960s. In the 1970s, they then built a middle school adjacent to the high school for grades 6 to 8. That opened about 1976.
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Post by spoon on Apr 1, 2015 15:36:36 GMT -5
I started kindergarten in 1969 and I always heard the term "elementary school" for the lower grades. But I do remember "grammar school" as a phrase that "old people" used. ("Old people" meaning anybody over 30.) Yes, that was always my understanding of the distinction. Grammar school was a term for elementary school more commonly used by older generations. I was born in 1979 and lived in New Jersey (still do). I grew up referring to it as elementary school. My mother was born in 1943 and was an elementary school teacher. But she would refer to elementary school (both my school and her school was childhood) as grammar school. In NJ, some school district have separate middle schools, while other just put K through 8 (or pre-K through 8) in one school. Some elementary might refer to K-5 or K-8, depending on whether there's a separate middle school. Junior high was used as a synonym for the 6-8 middle schools. High school struck me as such as distinct cultural concept of grades 9-12 grouped together, that whenever heard a of a placed that separate out one of more of those grades, it struck me as odd. |
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Post by Crimebuster on Apr 1, 2015 15:39:08 GMT -5
As a kid, my school was called "Elementary" in the name, but we referred to it as grade school. I remember the breakdown of grades being a bit different from what others are posting; we considered k-5 to be grade school, 6-8 to be junior high or middle school, and 9-12 to be high school. But we didn't quite treat it like this in real life, because our grades k-6 were in one building and 7-12 were in another. So in reality, we considered 7-8 to be junior high (those classes were downstairs) and 9-12 to be high school (with classes upstairs).
This was in the 1980's.
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Post by dupersuper on Apr 1, 2015 19:43:01 GMT -5
1980's Canada: preschool, kindergarten, elementary school (1 - 6). junior high school (7 - 9), high school (10 - 12), university
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Post by berkley on Apr 2, 2015 0:53:17 GMT -5
Wow thanks for all the responses. Seems education structures have really changed in this country. When I was in school in St Louis MO, elementary was K-6, junior high was 7 & 8 and high school was 9-12. Thanks for the lengthy insight Dizzy. That's quite a interesting education system there. I started Kindergarten in September 1966, I suppose it must have been, AFAIK, up to garde 3 was called primary school, then grades 4 to 6 were called elementary, 7 to 9 was junior high, and 10 and 11 (as far as we went in my day in NL) was high school. I think that's more or less the American nomenclature, isn't it? Except for ending at grade 11, of course. These classifications were kind of arbitrary, though - more theoretical than real, in that we didn't necessarily change to a new school when we went from, say, elementary to junior high or whatever. For me Kindergarten to grade 5 was in one building, grades 6 to most of grade 8 were in another, the last bit of grade 8 and grade 9 in another (our whole school was moved into a new building). Grades 10 & 11 were in the Protestant high school - we had separate school systems back then for the Protestants and the Catholics.Was there a difference in education because of the differing religious views? Or just plain segregation? Completely different system - they were segregated by gender with separate boys and girls schools all the way through high school, and we weren't; they wore uniforms, we didn't. Their system always seemed much more strict and disciplined than ours, but that might have been a distorted impression. Maybe not though. I remember one of my physics profs in university, a Scottish immigrant to Nfld who was not Catholic, sent his kids to the Catholic school because he thought they were taught better there. |
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Post by berkley on Apr 2, 2015 0:58:54 GMT -5
Back when I was a kid, schooling in the Netherlands worked like this: 4-12 years old:
When you are 4 years old you went to Kleuterschool (lit: "Toddler school") and you did that for 2 or 3 years (depending whether you were 4 years old before or after october 30) This would have made a big difference to me, as my birthday is in December. Very interesting to hear about the way the education system worked in the Netherlands. I hope more posters from outside North America will describe their school systems here. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Apr 2, 2015 8:35:14 GMT -5
Wow thanks for all the responses. Seems education structures have really changed in this country. When I was in school in St Louis MO, elementary was K-6, junior high was 7 & 8 and high school was 9-12. Thanks for the lengthy insight Dizzy. That's quite a interesting education system there. Was there a difference in education because of the differing religious views? Or just plain segregation? Completely different system - they were segregated by gender with separate boys and girls schools all the way through high school, and we weren't; they wore uniforms, we didn't. Their system always seemed much more strict and disciplined than ours, but that might have been a distorted impression. Maybe not though. I remember one of my physics profs in university, a Scottish immigrant to Nfld who was not Catholic, sent his kids to the Catholic school because he thought they were taught better there. Oh okay that sounds like this in the states. I think I just got thrown off by Protestant. I think of it as Catholic school and "public" school for all other non-believers. Or more accurately public school for all those that can't afford it. |
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