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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 12, 2014 15:45:45 GMT -5
Yeah. Identity Crisis was terrible on just about every level. Every DC character was fodder for the melodrama. And Sue Dibny is the only character in comics who was fridged twice in the same story.
And what they did to Jean Loring was also bad bad bad writing.
And then there's that idiotic fight between Deathstroke and the JLA. Imagine a series where that fight is only the fourth stupidest thing in the story. That's Identity Crisis.
(Identity Crisis helps me understand why Hush and Long Halloween are considered classics. And why Grant Morrison is considered a good writer. These comics are graded on a curve.)
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 12, 2014 18:04:30 GMT -5
Sorry guys , i thought ID crisis was a solid thought provoking series. It had it's weak points but it raised the question of how far you're willing to go to protect the people you love. The Silver and bronze age was full of unrealistic examples of the heroes staying "safe " from retaliation and this series showed how it really done.
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
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Post by Crimebuster on Jul 12, 2014 19:32:31 GMT -5
Sorry guys , i thought ID crisis was a solid thought provoking series. It had it's weak points but it raised the question of how far you're willing to go to protect the people you love. The Silver and bronze age was full of unrealistic examples of the heroes staying "safe " from retaliation and this series showed how it really done. Done better two decades earlier by Mark Gruenwald in Squadron Supreme. Much better.
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 12, 2014 21:02:31 GMT -5
Sorry guys , i thought ID crisis was a solid thought provoking series. It had it's weak points but it raised the question of how far you're willing to go to protect the people you love. The Silver and bronze age was full of unrealistic examples of the heroes staying "safe " from retaliation and this series showed how it really done. I still don't like the use of rape in the story though. Not only does rape in general make me really uncomfortable when it's used in any fictional story, but Sue's rape is never even a central part of the story. It's just a vehicle to push the story forward and how the incident affected her is never brought into question. It was just an unnecessary retcon to the character that served to advance the stories of other characters instead of her.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 12, 2014 21:54:51 GMT -5
Sorry guys , i thought ID crisis was a solid thought provoking series. It had it's weak points but it raised the question of how far you're willing to go to protect the people you love. The Silver and bronze age was full of unrealistic examples of the heroes staying "safe " from retaliation and this series showed how it really done. Done better two decades earlier by Mark Gruenwald in Squadron Supreme. Much better. There is just way too much wrong with Identity Crisis for it to get any points for exploring the "flaws" of the comics of the 1960s and 1970s. It could have been done without ruining the Dibnys, without disposing of Sue Dibny or Jean Loring as characters merely because the writer was too lazy to come up with something aside from a lurid rape and sensational "twists" and without the nonsensical deification of (ugh) Deathstroke.
And yes, Squadron Supreme is much better.
If ICC likes it, that's fine. We all like some dumb stuff. I pull out War Crimes and read it every once in a while because it has some great art and it's one of the better organized big cross-overs. But it's pretty stupid in so many ways. I don't pretend it's good writing.
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Post by the4thpip on Jul 13, 2014 3:49:38 GMT -5
It also sucked as a mystery novel. The whole "I did not mean to murder her but brought a flame thrower with me just in case" kept this from ever being a "solid story" in my mind.
It did provoke some thoughts in me. But none I can repeat in polite company like this.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 13, 2014 8:00:00 GMT -5
Done better two decades earlier by Mark Gruenwald in Squadron Supreme. Much better. There is just way too much wrong with Identity Crisis for it to get any points for exploring the "flaws" of the comics of the 1960s and 1970s. It could have been done without ruining the Dibnys, without disposing of Sue Dibny or Jean Loring as characters merely because the writer was too lazy to come up with something aside from a lurid rape and sensational "twists" and without the nonsensical deification of (ugh) Deathstroke.
And yes, Squadron Supreme is much better.
If ICC likes it, that's fine. We all like some dumb stuff. I pull out War Crimes and read it every once in a while because it has some great art and it's one of the better organized big cross-overs. But it's pretty stupid in so many ways. I don't pretend it's good writing.
The rape and murder of Sue, while disturbing to many long time fans, was integral to the story in that it raised the stakes of what our heroes do. It shows that sometimes they are pushed into a corner where they have to make hard choices. The rape was important because it draws the reader into the dilemma that divided the league. EVERY reader made a choice, in that instant, to vote for a mindwipe or not. Jean Loring had a long history of being mentally unstable, so I don't see it as a problem for her to hatch this crime. The Deathstroke battle was inane. The dumb stuff like flame throwers I will concede was ...uh.. dumb. Now, i'm willing to have you disagree with my assessment but please point out the " There is just way too much wrong with Identity Crisis" to me. I saw it as a serious problem that the League had to deal with. Even Batman didn't know who it could be.
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Post by the4thpip on Jul 13, 2014 8:54:55 GMT -5
I dunno. To me, a mystery story that didn't work, heroes acting out of character and illogical to serve the plot and the "women in refrigerators" cliché was plenty wrong to make it a bad comic book story.
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Post by the4thpip on Jul 13, 2014 15:39:33 GMT -5
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 13, 2014 17:04:28 GMT -5
I dunno. To me, a mystery story that didn't work, heroes acting out of character and illogical to serve the plot and the "women in refrigerators" cliché was plenty wrong to make it a bad comic book story. I guess another read of it would be in order for me. I have absolutely no memory of what yall been talking about. The most I remember is Blue Beetle getting killed in Countdown to Infinite Crisis. Batman was probably the only title of DC I was reading monthly before, after and during Infinite Crisis so that may be why I don't remember it. Edit: Help me out guys and gals. (I don't have a scanner.) First issue the villain 2 page spread... most I know; Light, Black Adam, Cheetah, Sinestro, Polaris, Deathstroke, and Bizzaro. I recognize the guy that wears the mask that changes peoples emotions but cant remember his name. The other looks like a Bizzaro version of Flash. Thanks
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 13, 2014 18:18:11 GMT -5
Adam, I think you're getting "Infinite Crisis" mixed up with "Identity Crisis."
And the guy who changes peoples' emotions might be Psycho-Pirate. Is that from Infinite Crisis? I've never read that one.
I didn't read comics for a few years and I'm slowly getting caught up on the "big stuff" that I missed. I read Dark Knight Strikes Again last week and it was interesting. Pretty good at times. Nice to see Carrie Kelly again! She steals the show!
I'm in no hurry to read Infinite Crisis. So many of the "big events" are so disappointing. Not boring, nice art, mostly fun to read, but there's almost always some lazy plotting and bad writing. I didn't think Crisis on Infinite Earths was that great when it first came, but it's much better than Identity Crisis or Final Crisis. So I'm biding my time on Infinite Crisis.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 13, 2014 18:27:12 GMT -5
It's Infinite Crisis I'm reading right now. And yeah I caught him name here in the second issue. I remember seeing him in such small parts of stories throughout DC, but never a very big role. But for some reason that costume seems more villainous and creepy then some others. I guess it's the facial expressions through the metal mask that seem offsetting.
The only other "reset" event in DC I've read was COIE, which back in the mid to late 90s when I first read it, really enjoyed it. Even though having no extensive knowledge of DCs history, and confused me a bit, it was the first DC even I ever read. I may have read Knightsend/fall/quest before but either way ....
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 13, 2014 19:09:29 GMT -5
Infinite Crisis at least has some nice Phil Jimenez and George Perez art, though the extreme violence turns me off from liking it
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 13, 2014 20:33:40 GMT -5
In order of Best to worst:
1. Crisis On Infinite Earths 2. Identity Crisis 3. Infinite Crisis 4. Final Crisis
Crisis on Infinite Earths had a wide scope with a mission to combine all the various universes that DC had created and compiled to that point. I found it to be a great story that only suffered from having no one involved remembering it at the end. ( Except for Psycho Pirate, I guess).
ID Crisis was a nice story that starts out as a murder mystery and mushrooms out to full paranoia by the heroes.In the Mystery it comes out that Sue was raped by Dr. Light in the past and he becomes the main suspect. This tale sheds light on the JLA using less than heroic methods with dealing with their foes. No one comes out clean in this story and it's the "Watchmen" event for DC proper.
Infinite Crisis follows the happy ending for The Golden age Superman at the end of COIE and ruins it. Unleashing a mentally unstable Superboy into the mix. . Alex Luthor is turned from a good guy into a bad guy for the sake of an ill advised sequel. The series suffered from having too many artists with different styles mish moshed into a 7 issue series
Final Crisis was so bad that I bailed after issue #2.
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 13, 2014 21:30:46 GMT -5
Blah, I hated the use of Superboy Prime in Infinite Crisis. It was just a way for DC to mock fans. Also, Alexander Luthor's turn to evil to serve the plot annoyed me too.
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