fred2
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by fred2 on Apr 25, 2015 17:25:21 GMT -5
I was thinking how DC Comics transferred from the golden age to the silver age and how many casualties there were. Really, only Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Green Arrow made the transition. Gone were the characters from Fawcett, Quality, Seven Soldiers of Victory and Justice Society.
Of course the sidekicks made it over, like Robin and Speedy.
As superheroes bounced back, so many in the silver age seemed unorginal and derivative of current or previous superheroes. For example: Supergirl, Krypto, Ace, Batwoman, Batgirl I, Batgirl II, Batmite, Aqualad, Mera, Aquagirl, Flash, Kid Flash, Green Lantern, Katma Tui, Atom, Zatanna, Red Tornado, etc...
Some of the more original characters (original in that not based on previous DC characters) were Phantom Stranger, Martian Manhunter, Adam Strange, Metamorpho and to a certain degree Elongated man (albeit could be argued is based on Plastic man.) The there were teams like the Metal Men and Legion of Superheroes.
Not sure where I am going with this other than it seems the Golden Age was more like a primordial incubator than the Silver Age. The Silver Age seemed to be where the more famous characters soldified their dynasties with derivative characters.
Oh what could have been... Plastic Boy, Sandgirl, Hourdog,...
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 25, 2015 17:50:48 GMT -5
I think a lot of Silver Age DC was brilliant and original - But the superhero books were the least of both.
Secret Six is a great idea. Challenges of the Unknown is an extremely strong concept. There was really nothing like Enemy Ace or Haunted Tank in comics before. Eclipso was a brilliant horror concept. Toth's Hot Wheels is the only time car chases have EVER worked in comics. Captain Action was both shockingly experimental and a lot of fun. And Sugar and Spike was just pure congealed brilliance that wasn't really recognized 'till it was ripped off decades later. Hell, there are issues of Binky I think are lol funny, and that's more than I can say for '60s Archie.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Apr 26, 2015 6:54:32 GMT -5
I'm with fred2 on this for the most part. There was innovation in the early Silver Age, but whereas the Golden Age had been a gold rush of publishers throwing any superhero they could at the wall to see if it would stick, the DC Silver Age ultimately felt like a more canned product sold by a publisher who was a little too sure he knew what you wanted and was going to sell it to you without varying too much from the basic mould.
It's exactly why I like the Bronze Age and, to some extent, the Copper. You've got publishers fretting all over again about how to appeal to the older, more mature readership that was now making its voice and demand heard, and a lot of bold experimentation ensued.
Though I'd never considered it before, there's a lot of commonality between the DC Silver Age and Marvel in the 1990s: both sold products that felt meaningless and rolled off of an assembly line belt because they felt they had their customers pegged. Editors also, I think, wielded a lot more control over what creators could and could not do as a result. When a company thinks it knows what sells, it doesn't want to see anything in print that doesn't completely match that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 14:33:50 GMT -5
It's very simple, top dogs don't innovate, they don't need to because the status quo favors them, so you don't threaten the status quo with innovation. When you are grass roots or at the bottom and need to make progress, you innovate hoping to strike a chord and get ahead, shaking up the status quo to change your position in it, but if you succeed and the new status quo now favors you, the impetus for innovation is gone and innovation is out the door. It's not just comics, it's broader market economics and even politics, power structures, social structures, etc. A simple axiom, those who benefit from the status quo rarely change the status quo.
-M
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Apr 26, 2015 14:51:32 GMT -5
Also contributing to DC's non-innovative status from the mid 50s thru the mid-60s was the fact they were a closed shop. Essentially they were not hiring anyone new. It was the same group of editors, writers and artists for over 10 years. Granted many of them were quite talented but essentially it begins to get stale. Neil Adams and E. Nelson Bridwell or some of the select few that broke in. It wasn't until the late 60s with Marvel now recognized as seriously gaining in sales and a number of DC veterans getting fired for trying to start a union with health benefits that new blood came aboard. Most importantly it was folks like Dick Giordano and his Charlton pals (like Diko, Skeats, Aparo et al), Wally Wood, Marv Wolfman , Len Wein and Denny O'Neill who brought some newer concepts like Hawk & Dove, Secret Six, Brother Power the Geek and more
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 26, 2015 15:21:45 GMT -5
I will say, though, that I think the DC Silver Age books had the most interesting variety of plots, or at least interesting story hooks. I don't think there have ever been more effective high concept superhero books than the Schwartz and Weissinger stable. "What if the Justice League's Costumes Came Alive" vs the competition's "What if Iron Man fought the Mandarin for the sixteenth time."
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Post by MDG on Apr 26, 2015 19:06:47 GMT -5
I agree with Repitsaurus that the DC heroes are the least interesting-- at least the Weisinger and Schwartz lines. They're fun to read, but don't have many surprises. I love the late silver and early bronze for the variety of new concepts, though most were short-lived: Secret Six, Bat Lash, Creeper, The Shadow, Swamp Thing, even Kirby's work. DC tried this to a certain extent in the 80 s as well: Nathaniel Dusk, Spanner s Galaxy, etc. But both periods they were trying to push against a market. Momentum for superheroes.
I gotta say, though, that I really have a hard time thinking of any Silver Age Marvels that don't involve Kirby or Ditko that I enjoy. Maybe Iron Man around the time Heck was drawing it. But they all feel like second- stringers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 22:01:09 GMT -5
Most importantly it was folks like Dick Giordano and his Charlton pals (like Diko, Skeats, Aparo et al), Wally Wood, Marv Wolfman , Len Wein and Denny O'Neill who brought some newer concepts like Hawk & Dove, Secret Six, Brother Power the Geek and more To me, it was these guys that the DC Silver Age took off and that when the new heroes and concepts were starting to evolve in and that's helped close the gap of the Golden Age of Comics to the Silver Age of Comics with these characters that Ish mentioned earlier. Ish knows what he is talking about.
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Post by gothos on Apr 28, 2015 15:47:35 GMT -5
I was thinking how DC Comics transferred from the golden age to the silver age and how many casualties there were. Really, only Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Green Arrow made the transition. Gone were the characters from Fawcett, Quality, Seven Soldiers of Victory and Justice Society. Of course the sidekicks made it over, like Robin and Speedy. As superheroes bounced back, so many in the silver age seemed unorginal and derivative of current or previous superheroes. For example: Supergirl, Krypto, Ace, Batwoman, Batgirl I, Batgirl II, Batmite, Aqualad, Mera, Aquagirl, Flash, Kid Flash, Green Lantern, Katma Tui, Atom, Zatanna, Red Tornado, etc... Some of the more original characters (original in that not based on previous DC characters) were Phantom Stranger, Martian Manhunter, Adam Strange, Metamorpho and to a certain degree Elongated man (albeit could be argued is based on Plastic man.) The there were teams like the Metal Men and Legion of Superheroes. Not sure where I am going with this other than it seems the Golden Age was more like a primordial incubator than the Silver Age. The Silver Age seemed to be where the more famous characters soldified their dynasties with derivative characters. Oh what could have been... Plastic Boy, Sandgirl, Hourdog,... A variety of other minor characters survived in back-up status-- which is the way both Aquaman and Green Arrow lasted-- though the only other headliners I can think of offhand are Tomahawk and Blackhawk (who was purchased from Quality by DC in 1956). By the time DC got finished with them, both were encountering so many monsters and costumed characters that one could easily term them and their coteries "quasi-superheroes." I'm not sure what you're using as your criteria for "being derivative." The Golden Age is full of characters derived from franchises published in other media. The original Sandman is heavily indebted to radio's Green Hornet. Batman took elements from the Shadow and various bat-garbed characters. Hawkman borrows from Flash Gordon and John Carter. It's valid to point out characters who are directly derivative from a template, like Batwoman from Batman. But a crimefighting partner like Mera isn't specifically derivative of Aquaman, so long as she isn't sporting some variation on his name or costume. She isn't even really derivative of Aquaman's earlier buddy Quisp, though the editors of the title certainly recycled his hard-water powers into Mera. But Quisp as a character was just one of many routine imp-characters, and Mera was a much more interesting character, even apart from her intrinsic hottitude. I'm not even sure re-using a name is all that derivative when there's so little else in common. The Silver Age Red Tornado derives no more from the Golden Age version than Hawkman does from the "Hawkmen" of Flash Gordon. Artists in all media constantly use and re-use tropes that have gone before, but all of these re-usages are not automatically derivative in the creative sense. There are some ways in which the Silver Age outstrips the Golden Age. The second Flash's villains, simple as they are, are far better developed than the foes faced by Jay Garrick.
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Post by gothos on Apr 28, 2015 16:04:00 GMT -5
It's very simple, top dogs don't innovate, they don't need to because the status quo favors them, so you don't threaten the status quo with innovation. When you are grass roots or at the bottom and need to make progress, you innovate hoping to strike a chord and get ahead, shaking up the status quo to change your position in it, but if you succeed and the new status quo now favors you, the impetus for innovation is gone and innovation is out the door. It's not just comics, it's broader market economics and even politics, power structures, social structures, etc. A simple axiom, those who benefit from the status quo rarely change the status quo. -M It sometimes depends on who benefits from the closed shop. To the best of my knowledge, even most fans of Golden Age DC don't celebrate the early works of John Broome for that company. Judged only by those works, he was just one of many work-a-day writers in that period. The early Silver Age, though, was a time of potential ferment even before Marvel Comics began challenging DC at its own game, at least for some editors. According to Nyberg's SEAL OF APPROVAL, even for industry giant DC most comics weren't selling all that great, and so DC turned back to superheroes in search of strong sellers. I emphasize the factor of sales because a guy like Julie Schwartz wasn't seeking to "improve the medium" when he had his writers emphasize slightly greater complexity of characterization and "phony science" than you saw in the Golden Age. And I don't know that John Broome personally gave a crap about the stories he was doing in the Silver Age. But from the POVs of many hardcore DC fans. he produced much better work in the sixties than he had in the forties and fifties. That's not to say that everyone was caught up in the creative ferment. BLACKHAWK was one of the most stodgy features DC published. and the stories from 1957 read about the same as stories from 1964. But the ferment didn't start entirely with the influx of new creators, in my view.
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