shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Aug 13, 2015 19:06:42 GMT -5
I'd considered as much, but the difference is that Sanders has policies and plans. But are people attracted to Sanders because of the policies and plans, or because he's Mr. Outside to Hillary's Ms. Inside? I don't think his being an outsider would give him much credibility with the liberal base without the policies and plans. He's catering to the groups that are the most turned off by the personality showcases that elections have become. At least that's my opinion, but, then again, I'm very out of touch with the mainstream. I thought my wife was joking when she told me Trump was not only still in the running, but had clearly taken the lead.
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Post by spoon on Aug 13, 2015 21:07:55 GMT -5
I'd considered as much, but the difference is that Sanders has policies and plans. But are people attracted to Sanders because of the policies and plans, or because he's Mr. Outside to Hillary's Ms. Inside? That's really halfway toward begging the question, because it carries the assumption that the outside/inside thing is mutual exclusive to policy concerns. Hillary is Ms. Inside because, relatively speaking, I think she content with just minor tinkering with the income status quo. And frankly, I don't think much of pie-in-the-sky hippie BS. That's why certain media painting Bernie Sanders that way mystifies me. He's correct about the increasing concentration of wealth in the U.S. in a real, empirical, factually-supported way. The problem is that advertising is so powerful in politics nowadays, that the rich can obscure obvious economic facts to lots of people. The minimum wage is lower now in terms of real dollars than it's been for much of its history. Marginal tax rates for the rich are relatively low. There's major class warfare going on, but it's the rich who are winning. I think Bernie is actually the candidate whose description is closest to reality. The others are closer to fantasy. I think the comparison to Trump overstates things. His initial appeal was that he'd be a bully. He appealed to people who wanted to see their enemies pushed around. Trump's outsider stance seemed to launch in large way to pivot against allegations that his political donations showed he was a closet Democrat. Somehow he's claiming he bought political influence in the past to market himself as a crusader against buying political influence.
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 13, 2015 23:12:27 GMT -5
It would be so much easier to dismiss Trump as a "nutjub," but it would appear the reason he's making such gains is that he's saying the things that a large number of Americans are thinking. And that's quite disturbing to me. As if rampant ammosexuality & the corresponding death tolls, year after year, weren't enough to make me suspect we're basically living in the world's largest insane asylum over here ... Too bad we don't have nearly enough strait-jackets.
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 13, 2015 23:29:38 GMT -5
It would be so much easier to dismiss Trump as a "nutjub," but it would appear the reason he's making such gains is that he's saying the things that a large number of Americans are thinking. And that's quite disturbing to me. Here's an analysis that says Trump's appeal to many people is really the same as Sanders' appeal: That's from goplifer.com/ - the sanest Republican around. He goes on to say that this frustration comes from people approaching politics as consumers rather than as citizens. I'm not sure I'm with him all the way on that but the quoted part above is thought-provoking. I disagree with the blogger; Sanders is looking at things from an "our" perspective, not a "my" perspective. There has always been a Venn diagram overlap between populists and progressives, centered around the resentment go various "Big" organisms: Government, Business, banks, for example. However, the reasons that the two groups are angry at these organisms differ. The common ground disappears when you question their motives and/or goals. Progressives want society to change to benefit those who are treated unjustly. Their right-wing "counterparts" are interested in what's in it for them; the problems of anyone other than their core group mean nothing to them. I think of a member of my extended family who is resentful of anyone who ain't him (Pardon the grammatical errors, bit that sounds better), from Wall Street types to the people who ride his bus even when they're short of the correct fare. He absolutely hates that the bus company's policy is to allow them on. Because they're the takers who are bringing this country down. And he resents them. In fact, he spent a couple of years resenting them while he was sitting on his couch, because he decided to take a buy-out from his previous employer and collect unemployment instead of retraining for a different job in the company. Here's a shocker: he idolizes both Presidents Bush and is very excited that Trump is running.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 23:59:38 GMT -5
I'd considered as much, but the difference is that Sanders has policies and plans. But are people attracted to Sanders because of the policies and plans, or because he's Mr. Outside to Hillary's Ms. Inside? I'm attracted to the policies and plans, and have been cheering him on in the senate for years.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Aug 14, 2015 7:57:05 GMT -5
I read a column which theorizes that the angry Trump legions may not be as large as they appear to be. Which I hope to be true.
His argument is that despite historic leads in the primaries, polls don't paint a real picture of the electorate. Well then, why poll people? They hsay he has "only" a quarter of the Republican support. There are sixteen other candidates. I'd say that's significant. It is an opinion column, so mileage may vary. No argument that Trump's support is significant at this point, but I'm hoping the columnist is right that Trump's support is overstated. As far as I'm concerned, the sooner he's out of the race the better. Unless he runs Independent and takes support from the Republican candidate. I'm ok with that.
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 14, 2015 10:49:47 GMT -5
Ted Cruz promises to prosecute Planned Parenthood for entirely legal actions(I added his first name to the existing headline so people wouldn't think it was Penelope Cruz.)
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Post by Phil Maurice on Aug 14, 2015 20:02:50 GMT -5
Ted Cruz promises to prosecute Planned Parenthood for entirely legal actions(I added his first name to the existing headline so people wouldn't think it was Penelope Cruz.) Funny. But you see, this is what galls me about the GOP. They want to waste time and money fighting battles that have already been decided: the ACA, same-sex marriage, voting rights, abortion, etc. I wish they'd expend half as much energy addressing our crumbling infra-structure, the wage gap, our broken prison and education systems, and most terrifying of all, our antiquated and decaying nuclear defense systems.
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 14, 2015 21:10:16 GMT -5
Ted Cruz promises to prosecute Planned Parenthood for entirely legal actions(I added his first name to the existing headline so people wouldn't think it was Penelope Cruz.) (I added his first name to the existing headline so people wouldn't think it was Penelope Cruz.) Funny. But you see, this is what galls me about the GOP. They want to waste time and money fighting battles that have already been decided: the ACA, same-sex marriage, voting rights, abortion, etc. I wish they'd expend half as much energy addressing our crumbling infra-structure, the wage gap, our broken prison and education systems, and most terrifying of all, our antiquated and decaying nuclear defense systems. And they hate "Big Gummint" interfering with our lives except when they don't.
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Post by dupersuper on Aug 14, 2015 22:47:05 GMT -5
Ted Cruz promises to prosecute Planned Parenthood for entirely legal actions(I added his first name to the existing headline so people wouldn't think it was Penelope Cruz.) (I added his first name to the existing headline so people wouldn't think it was Penelope Cruz.) She must be so embarrassed by her brother...
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 15, 2015 10:05:49 GMT -5
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 15, 2015 11:04:00 GMT -5
Citizen Trump explains how he will build the wall.
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 15, 2015 11:11:54 GMT -5
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 15, 2015 13:52:48 GMT -5
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Post by The Captain on Aug 15, 2015 14:19:50 GMT -5
Ted Cruz promises to prosecute Planned Parenthood for entirely legal actions (I added his first name to the existing headline so people wouldn't think it was Penelope Cruz.) Funny. But you see, this is what galls me about the GOP. They want to waste time and money fighting battles that have already been decided: the ACA, same-sex marriage, voting rights, abortion, etc. I wish they'd expend half as much energy addressing our crumbling infra-structure, the wage gap, our broken prison and education systems, and most terrifying of all, our antiquated and decaying nuclear defense systems. This is something my wife and I were talking about earlier this week. The Republicans need to accept that they've lost the battle (and rightfully so) on abortion and same-sex marriage, and that their continued revisiting of those topics, each time attacking from a slightly-different angle, is pointless. If they actually focused on things that were going to improve the future of the nation instead of playing the Republican Greatest Hits album every election cycle, they might not seem so out of touch with the mainstream. It's like conversations I used to have with my uncle and cousins in Tennessee when we would visit, where they would be pissed off about desegregation and going on about "The War of Northern Aggression" (yes, even in the 1980's, they were still calling it this). They couldn't accept that they were on the wrong side of history, but rather than evolve, they stubbornly clung to their old ways of thinking, no matter how reprehensible those might be.
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