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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 26, 2015 18:26:41 GMT -5
Many express those kinds of horrid opinions in public About gays and immigrants, sure. I think they can do that and hide behind religion in regards to the gays, or claim to not be racist in regards to immigrants. But I can't remember a time I've ever overheard someone in public speak of segregation in a positive manner. The reason being just about anyone around them would give them a mouthful if they did. So they save it for the dinner table at home. And I'm fine with that. As long as the bigots know society hates them and their views, they can go be bigots in private where I don't have to hear or see it. I think it depends on where you go, I've heard people casually discussing bigoted opinions like segregation in public many times down south and none of the people doing it were wearing hoods. That's changing of course but I don't think that has to do with others shouting them down or shaming them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2015 18:40:17 GMT -5
I think it does. I have racist family members, and their voice definitely drops when they're going to say something they know everyone is going to hate. I can feel their shame when they do that. And they should feel it too. Maybe the south is different, but all it would probably take is someone's kid to let them know in a direct manner how disgusted they are with them for someone to reconsider their beliefs. Or at the very least reconsider sharing them. A politician wouldn't get behind pro segregation these days. If Kim Davis was denying interracial heterosexual couples their marriage license on religious grounds she'd have been tarred and feathered by the same people who rallied behind her because she did it to gays. I believe in 15 years time it will be just as toxic to be anti-gay as it is to be racist today, but the only reason I believe we'll eventually get there is the public no longer entertaining their hate as a philosophical devil's advocate position. It's hate, it's poison, it should be shunned and shamed. Public outrage should cost bigots their jobs and force their businesses to close their doors.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 26, 2015 19:05:23 GMT -5
I could see that working on a personal level, like your example of your family, because they invariably have to see those other members of your family every so often who disagree with their views and so they quiet down to avoid confrontation in the sake of convenience. But on a societal level I don't think it works that way, it's a larger and more complex living group than a singular portion of a family, I mean, even on your micro level I don't think shame really works as you said they are just more discreet about it. So again, what does that tactic truly accomplish?
At the end of the day shame, guilt and fear are just flat out poor motivators; education is the only real solution.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2015 19:42:04 GMT -5
Well, it won't work if I'm the only one doing it. But I truly believe the bigoted are in the minority, and if they are shamed harshly enough by their peers when they express hate, they'll stop. Or wear a hood when they do, which at least acknowledges their shame.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 26, 2015 21:12:10 GMT -5
Well, it won't work if I'm the only one doing it. But I truly believe the bigoted are in the minority, and if they are shamed harshly enough by their peers when they express hate, they'll stop. Or wear a hood when they do, which at least acknowledges their shame. That's just the thing though, you aren't alone. Your reaction is something that has become fairly common(especially online) and things have remained the same. Encounter something you don't like? Shout it down, shame it, silence it. But it doesn't work, it just fuels the machine. They believe they are persecuted and well you just gave them personal "proof" of their perceived persecution and they fight on. You may believe it works other wise, that it silences them, but time and time again we see the scenario I described happening. Look at Kim Davis in Kentucky, have all the millions of insults lobbed her way silenced her or the people who support her?No, it only solidifies their resolve and as I mentioned earlier caused lookers on to perhaps question if maybe she is persecuted as the insults are all they see. So again, other than making you feel better what does it accomplish? It doesn't make your argument clearer, doesn't discredit her opinion and causes onlookers to think she may have something. And that's true of every time you go for the quick put down rather than the rational response.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2015 21:37:40 GMT -5
Online isn't real though. People who would never be horribly racist in public sure as hell are in the comments section of any newspaper. Nobody is worried about anonymous internet shame. I'm talking about in person, which is a place where I'm far less likely to witness racism. I almost feel like it's my civic duty to do my best to ruin a racists day if I cross paths with one. Same goes for bigots of any type. I'll do it in line at the theater, I'll do it in a restaurant. At the post office. Anywhere some d-bad will loudly exclaim how terrible (insert minority group) is. I'm not trying to change their mind, or change the mind of any onlookers. I'm trying to hurt them in a way comparable to how they've hurt any gays or Muslims or Mexicans that may have overheard their comments.
And like I said, I accept it's probably not a popular stance to have. But it's the one I have.
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 26, 2015 23:45:02 GMT -5
I don't see respect as fawning. The idea that you should treat others as you yourself would like to be treated, while certainly simple, has always seemed a self explanatory virtue. I wouldn't want to be shouted down for expressing myself, so why do the same to others? I've yet to see a reason for how doing that accomplishes anything other than perhaps making you "feel good". The Golden Rule is a wonderful guide to living one's life, but it doesn't mean that I can't question another person's illogical statements and beliefs. I haven't tried to shout others down. Quite the contrary. Sometimes appeals to logic and reason work, and as you say, education can and should be an answer. Sometimes satire serves the purpose, too. But when a well educated man like Ben Carson can blithely explain that Darwin was influenced by Satan, and the rest of us are all supposed to avoid questioning that kind of statement, let alone making fun of it, we have a problem. If Ben Carson weren't running for the nomination, his crackpot beliefs would still be irritating, but at least I and 250 million other people would not have to reckon with the implications of his beliefs were he to become President. Now Carson may turn out to be an afterthought, as Huckabee is, but because the GOP in particular has placed whatever balls it has in the pockets of its hard-line right-wingers (witness the overthrow of the Bolshevik Boehner), any and all of them are potentially dangerous, because so much of the Tea-Party-driven agenda is based on untruths. Facts mean nothing to such people. Maybe "fawning" was the wrong adjective to use to describe the respect we are forced by convention to give to someone's opinion, no matter how uninformed it is. "Lip-biting" is a better descriptor. I am tired of having to bite said lip and smile politely and pretend to accept people's ignorance, whether its origins spring from prejudice, ignorance or religious beliefs. If someone's beliefs don't hold up to being challenged or questioned, maybe he or she will reconsider and re-evaluate them. I don't want to be in pissing contests, but I would enjoy a well-informed discussion, because I don't think that I have all the answers, as many of those "in the know" do. We're not talking about trying to convince me that I should have watched "Lost" before I decided I wouldn't like it, or that I'd love Brussels sprouts if only I'd try one. We're talking about beliefs that, if used to shape environmental, foreign and domestic policy, could have disastrous effects.
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Post by the4thpip on Sept 27, 2015 2:36:36 GMT -5
I don't see respect as fawning. The idea that you should treat others as you yourself would like to be treated, while certainly simple, has always seemed a self explanatory virtue. I wouldn't want to be shouted down for expressing myself, so why do the same to others? I've yet to see a reason for how doing that accomplishes anything other than perhaps making you "feel good". But that's just it: I fully want my peers to ridicule me if I ever start taking on completely ridiculous positions. I am not violating the Golden Rule here.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 27, 2015 8:50:44 GMT -5
I don't see respect as fawning. The idea that you should treat others as you yourself would like to be treated, while certainly simple, has always seemed a self explanatory virtue. I wouldn't want to be shouted down for expressing myself, so why do the same to others? I've yet to see a reason for how doing that accomplishes anything other than perhaps making you "feel good". The Golden Rule is a wonderful guide to living one's life, but it doesn't mean that I can't question another person's illogical statements and beliefs. I haven't tried to shout others down. Quite the contrary. Sometimes appeals to logic and reason work, and as you say, education can and should be an answer. Sometimes satire serves the purpose, too. But when a well educated man like Ben Carson can blithely explain that Darwin was influenced by Satan, and the rest of us are all supposed to avoid questioning that kind of statement, let alone making fun of it, we have a problem. If Ben Carson weren't running for the nomination, his crackpot beliefs would still be irritating, but at least I and 250 million other people would not have to reckon with the implications of his beliefs were he to become President. Now Carson may turn out to be an afterthought, as Huckabee is, but because the GOP in particular has placed whatever balls it has in the pockets of its hard-line right-wingers (witness the overthrow of the Bolshevik Boehner), any and all of them are potentially dangerous, because so much of the Tea-Party-driven agenda is based on untruths. Facts mean nothing to such people. Maybe "fawning" was the wrong adjective to use to describe the respect we are forced by convention to give to someone's opinion, no matter how uninformed it is. "Lip-biting" is a better descriptor. I am tired of having to bite said lip and smile politely and pretend to accept people's ignorance, whether its origins spring from prejudice, ignorance or religious beliefs. If someone's beliefs don't hold up to being challenged or questioned, maybe he or she will reconsider and re-evaluate them. I don't want to be in pissing contests, but I would enjoy a well-informed discussion, because I don't think that I have all the answers, as many of those "in the know" do. We're not talking about trying to convince me that I should have watched "Lost" before I decided I wouldn't like it, or that I'd love Brussels sprouts if only I'd try one. We're talking about beliefs that, if used to shape environmental, foreign and domestic policy, could have disastrous effects. You don't have to bite your lip either, as I said it's all about putting forth the best version of your argument and the best version should never be fueled by vitriol but rather cool logic.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 27, 2015 9:05:13 GMT -5
I don't see respect as fawning. The idea that you should treat others as you yourself would like to be treated, while certainly simple, has always seemed a self explanatory virtue. I wouldn't want to be shouted down for expressing myself, so why do the same to others? I've yet to see a reason for how doing that accomplishes anything other than perhaps making you "feel good". But that's just it: I fully want my peers to ridicule me if I ever start taking on completely ridiculous positions. I am not violating the Golden Rule here. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're in the minority there, but even so there are ways to point out to you the error of your ways without ridicule. Which is the more positive experience: "Pip, you're and idiot! Sit down and shut up or get the F#@! out!" or "I think you're coming at it from the wrong way Pip, and reasons X,Y and Z illustrate why" ? In the first instance you may learn not to say what you did(or you may double down and further entrench your self) but other than avoiding shame and ridicule did you learn why it was wrong to say what you did? Of course not, how could you? There is no information presented in that put down that would allow you to learn, where as in the second version there were no put downs but plenty of information. Shame, ridicule and fear are just plain poor motivators; they only teach avoidance, lack of empathy, withdrawal and never encourage growth which is your main goal when you frame an argument. So again, if your aim is to have a reasoned discourse why use tools that are counterproductive to that aim? Other than Dupont's reason, in which he states he's not about debate, I've yet to see anyone put forward a reasonable explanation for why fear, shame and ridicule should be present in a reasoned debate.
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Post by the4thpip on Sept 27, 2015 9:22:20 GMT -5
That depends on whether I am actually being an idiot or not.
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 27, 2015 9:32:11 GMT -5
The Golden Rule is a wonderful guide to living one's life, but it doesn't mean that I can't question another person's illogical statements and beliefs. I haven't tried to shout others down. Quite the contrary. Sometimes appeals to logic and reason work, and as you say, education can and should be an answer. Sometimes satire serves the purpose, too. But when a well educated man like Ben Carson can blithely explain that Darwin was influenced by Satan, and the rest of us are all supposed to avoid questioning that kind of statement, let alone making fun of it, we have a problem. If Ben Carson weren't running for the nomination, his crackpot beliefs would still be irritating, but at least I and 250 million other people would not have to reckon with the implications of his beliefs were he to become President. Now Carson may turn out to be an afterthought, as Huckabee is, but because the GOP in particular has placed whatever balls it has in the pockets of its hard-line right-wingers (witness the overthrow of the Bolshevik Boehner), any and all of them are potentially dangerous, because so much of the Tea-Party-driven agenda is based on untruths. Facts mean nothing to such people. Maybe "fawning" was the wrong adjective to use to describe the respect we are forced by convention to give to someone's opinion, no matter how uninformed it is. "Lip-biting" is a better descriptor. I am tired of having to bite said lip and smile politely and pretend to accept people's ignorance, whether its origins spring from prejudice, ignorance or religious beliefs. If someone's beliefs don't hold up to being challenged or questioned, maybe he or she will reconsider and re-evaluate them. I don't want to be in pissing contests, but I would enjoy a well-informed discussion, because I don't think that I have all the answers, as many of those "in the know" do. We're not talking about trying to convince me that I should have watched "Lost" before I decided I wouldn't like it, or that I'd love Brussels sprouts if only I'd try one. We're talking about beliefs that, if used to shape environmental, foreign and domestic policy, could have disastrous effects. You don't have to bite your lip either, as I said it's all about putting forth the best version of your argument and the best version should never be fueled by vitriol but rather cool logic. When someone says on the occasion of an unexpected death, "God must have needed another angel," I bite my lip. When someone says of a death or other tragic event, "We don't understand it, but it's all part of God's plan," I bite my lip. When someone says of a recovery from illness, "It was an answer to prayer," I bite my lip. When a colleague said to me on the afternoon of September 11, 2001, "My friend was going to be on the plane that hit the Pentagon, but his schedule changed and he had to give up his seat. God was looking out for him," I couldn't bite my lip and responded calmly, "Really? Why wasn't he looking out for the poor bastard who got his ticket and, for that matter, the rest of the people on that plane?" Her only answer was her jaw dropping, I hope in puzzlement. Maybe, just maybe, she'll think twice before saying something so-- what... stupid, heartless, illogical? -- again.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 27, 2015 10:19:33 GMT -5
You don't have to bite your lip either, as I said it's all about putting forth the best version of your argument and the best version should never be fueled by vitriol but rather cool logic. When someone says on the occasion of an unexpected death, "God must have needed another angel," I bite my lip. When someone says of a death or other tragic event, "We don't understand it, but it's all part of God's plan," I bite my lip. When someone says of a recovery from illness, "It was an answer to prayer," I bite my lip. When a colleague said to me on the afternoon of September 11, 2001, "My friend was going to be on the plane that hit the Pentagon, but his schedule changed and he had to give up his seat. God was looking out for him," I couldn't bite my lip and responded calmly, "Really? Why wasn't he looking out for the poor bastard who got his ticket and, for that matter, the rest of the people on that plane?" Her only answer was her jaw dropping, I hope in puzzlement. Maybe, just maybe, she'll think twice before saying something so-- what... stupid, heartless, illogical? -- again. With the first two, yes biting your lip is appropriate. We all have different ways of dealing with death emotionally and we all grieve in our own ways. It's a very personal moment and what works for some doesn't work for others, and there's no real way of saying which way is "better". It seems like an empty platitude to you and I but it may have been heartfelt and comforting to the person who said it. Now, in your own grief I can see why one would be tempted to lash out, and that too should be excused due to again how we deal with our own emotions. As for the situation you recounted about your experience on 9/11 I'll call back to what I said earlier, sometimes situations are just so emotional that you just can't help but react in kind; after all we're human not machines. If perhaps it was a less emotional moment you could have opened a serious dialogue, "I know you're just expressing relief that your friend is safe but did you stop and think about how your comment may effect other people who's friends and loved ones who were on that flight and didn't escape?" would have been far less confrontational and allowed a reasoned discussion to take place. Again, because of the emotions around 9/11 no one could have possibly expected you to be able to react in that cool of a manner, in your place I would have likely done the same, but I think the difference between the scenario you described and my alternate one is clear.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 27, 2015 10:23:40 GMT -5
That depends on whether I am actually being an idiot or not. Would you really learn you were being an idiot by being ridiculed though, or would you react emotionally in turn or just learn too avoid that subject all together? Years of psychological study say the last two reactions are far more likely, now maybe you're the exception to that and you would react with, "Well, I guess you guys are right." but we can't base things on the statistical outlier and expect things to work out the majority of the time.
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Post by the4thpip on Sept 27, 2015 13:42:17 GMT -5
We can respectfully agree to disagree on this, as both opinions have something going for it.
I just refuse to defend the idea of showing respect towards utter idiocy.
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