shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 11, 2015 11:08:16 GMT -5
I've never seen any charisma in Trump, myself, ever since Spy magazine was referring to him as "the short-fingered vulgarian". He has an obsession with thrusting himself into the spotlight but I don't think that's the same thing as charisma. what's interesting, is that everyone from Howard Stern, to Bill Maher are on record saying what a nice, and even tempered man Trump is in private. this public "persona" that we're seeing is all flash and smoke. . apparently he's quite an engaging person when dealing with folks one on one. Assuming he's not an idiot, Trump's goal in drawing attention to himself is three-fold: 1. Energize the Republican vote (which was pretty apathetic when compared to what was happening with the Democrats last election) 2. Push issues and ideas that he wants to see the REAL Republican nominee tackle 3. Keep the attention and criticism off of the candidates he actually wants to see go the extra mile. I disagree with everything the man currently represents, but it's just maybe possible he's a genius for doing this. |
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Post by the4thpip on Nov 11, 2015 12:15:47 GMT -5
The more we talk about Carson and Trump, the less we talk about Bush and Rubio -- and that's exactly what their supporters want. The Republican candidate for president needs to remain completely neutral and inoffensive until after the primaries. In related talk, someone explain to me how we have a "liberal" media when Trump and Carson are all we are talking about? Even NPR did a segment on Trump's teenage years yesterday morning. I think that kind of thinking used to be true. But now we have a campaign where Trump stayed on top much longer than any pundit predicted. And Bush's campaign has been labeled "In a death spiral" and he's had to let staff go. I do not think he can come back from that one. I used to be really good at picking the winners of primaries. This year, I just don't know. It feels like they changed the rules on us. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 11, 2015 16:32:56 GMT -5
The more we talk about Carson and Trump, the less we talk about Bush and Rubio -- and that's exactly what their supporters want. The Republican candidate for president needs to remain completely neutral and inoffensive until after the primaries. In related talk, someone explain to me how we have a "liberal" media when Trump and Carson are all we are talking about? Even NPR did a segment on Trump's teenage years yesterday morning. I can't even begin to explain how we have a Liberal Media (TM) because we don't. And most conservatives won't even talk to you if you won't meekly accept this easily-disproven talking point. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Nov 11, 2015 16:50:36 GMT -5
Do you even have in the US a national TV network owned by the state and not dedicated to profit, like in most european countries?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 11, 2015 16:53:27 GMT -5
And most conservatives won't even talk to you if you won't meekly accept this easily-disproven talking point. I'm hesitant to draw conclusions about an entire group of people. For every loud mouthed ignorant conservative, there are four more who are generally sensible, even if they are looking at different facts than you and I. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 11, 2015 17:00:10 GMT -5
Do you even have in the US a national TV network owned by the state and not dedicated to profit, like in most european countries? PBS is sort of like that but it doesn't have the prominence that the national networks have in Europe. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 11, 2015 17:02:04 GMT -5
I'm hesitant to draw conclusions about an entire group of people. For every loud mouthed ignorant conservative, there are four more who are generally sensible, even if they are looking at different facts than you and I. Your experiences with conservatives are much different than mine. A demographic of "generally sensible" people wouldn't have such an awful field of candidates to choose from. And I don't think the two sides are forming their opinions from different facts. "Facts" are things that are true, that actually happened. The two sides are forming their differing opinions from different realities. One reality is largely based on things that really happened. The other reality is based on things that conservatives believe in really hard. That's how I see it. I've been following politics and talking to people about politics for forty years. My opinions are based on my experiences, including a very unpleasant stint at a very right-wing daily newspaper. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 11, 2015 18:23:06 GMT -5
I'm hesitant to draw conclusions about an entire group of people. For every loud mouthed ignorant conservative, there are four more who are generally sensible, even if they are looking at different facts than you and I. Your experiences with conservatives are much different than mine. A demographic of "generally sensible" people wouldn't have such an awful field of candidates to choose from. And I don't think the two sides are forming their opinions from different facts. "Facts" are things that are true, that actually happened. The two sides are forming their differing opinions from different realities. One reality is largely based on things that really happened. The other reality is based on things that conservatives believe in really hard. That's how I see it. I've been following politics and talking to people about politics for forty years. My opinions are based on my experiences, including a very unpleasant stint at a very right-wing daily newspaper. 38% of people in the US identify as conservative, and I don't know about you but when I think about the people I interact with everyday I don't think to myself, "Half of those people were pretty crazy." and you know, going by the fact that most of the people I interact with are middle aged, white, male contractors who probably aren't college educated, the percentage of them that identify as conservative is probably much higher than the national average so it's pretty telling that I don't find myself thinking, "Most of these people are terrible." Instead, what I see when I look at them are just regular folks that aren't all that different than I am. There are definite differences in how we view the world and politics in general, but that doesn't make them generally insensible and the fact that the roll call of Republican candidates looks like it got out of a clown car doesn't provide evidence of that either. But heck, let's throw that aside as it's my own personal anecdote and may not represent your own. How about a thought experiment? You don't see why it's so bad that you have chosen to stigmatize all conservatives because you have reasons x,y, and z but what if we switched conservatives with another group? Would you feel it was okay if another user were to stigmatize all African Americans, women, Muslims, or group X based upon their own negative experiences, or would you see that as inappropriate behavior? |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 11, 2015 18:28:35 GMT -5
That liberal media that is owned by a handful of multi-national corporations?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 11, 2015 20:18:12 GMT -5
Your experiences with conservatives are much different than mine. A demographic of "generally sensible" people wouldn't have such an awful field of candidates to choose from. And I don't think the two sides are forming their opinions from different facts. "Facts" are things that are true, that actually happened. The two sides are forming their differing opinions from different realities. One reality is largely based on things that really happened. The other reality is based on things that conservatives believe in really hard. That's how I see it. I've been following politics and talking to people about politics for forty years. My opinions are based on my experiences, including a very unpleasant stint at a very right-wing daily newspaper. 38% of people in the US identify as conservative, and I don't know about you but when I think about the people I interact with everyday I don't think to myself, "Half of those people were pretty crazy." and you know, going by the fact that most of the people I interact with are middle aged, white male contractors who probably aren't college educated, the percentage of them that identify as conservative is probably much higher than the national average so it's pretty telling that I don't find myself thinking, "Most of these people are terrible." Instead, what I see when I look at them what I see are just regular folks that aren't that different than I am. There are definite differences in how we view the world and politics in general, but that doesn't make them generally insensible and the fact that the roll call of Republican candidates looks it got out of a clown car doesn't provide evidence of that either. But heck, let's throw that aside as it's my own personal anecdote and may not represent your own. How about a thought experiment? You don't see why it's so bad that you have chosen to stigmatize all conservatives because you have reasons x,y, and z but what if we switched conservatives with another group? Would you feel it was okay if another user were to stigmatize all African Americans, women, Muslims, or group X based upon their own negative experiences, or would you see that as inappropriate behavior?  |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 11, 2015 22:29:20 GMT -5
I've been around them too, thwhtguardian. I grew up in rural Indiana and I worked with them intimately in an environment - a right-wing daily newspaper - where politics came up a lot. So my experiences, yes, I think they are a lot different than yours. I don't have to guess at which ones might have been conservatives. I don't have to guess at what they might think about the issues.
All those nice sensible conservatives have either specifically said that people like me are traitors or they have continuously voted for leaders who say that people like me are traitors.
I remember the period from late 2001 to early 2009 far too well. (And it's still going on today. Just a tad less obvious.) I will not soon forget how many of my fellow Americans either think people like me are traitors or don't have a problem voting for leaders who regularly say that people like me are traitors.
As for your thought experiment, I'm game. Do African Americans, women, Muslims or members of Group X either call people like me traitors or regularly vote for people who happily and loudly say people like me are traitors? No. They do not.
I'm not comfortable surrounded by so many people who are happy with an ideology that thrives on saying people like me are traitors, no matter how nice they are when they aren't talking politics.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 11, 2015 22:44:33 GMT -5
I've been around them too, thwhtguardian. I grew up in rural Indiana and I worked with them intimately in an environment - a right-wing daily newspaper - where politics came up a lot. So my experiences, yes, I think they are a lot different than yours. I don't have to guess at which ones might have been conservatives. I don't have to guess at what they might think about the issues. All those nice sensible conservatives have either specifically said that people like me are traitors or they have continuously voted for leaders who say that people like me are traitors. I remember the period from late 2001 to early 2009 far too well. (And it's still going on today. Just a tad less obvious.) I will not soon forget how many of my fellow Americans either think people like me are traitors or don't have a problem voting for leaders who regularly say that people like me are traitors. As for your thought experiment, I'm game. Do African Americans, women, Muslims or members of Group X either call people like me traitors or regularly vote for people who happily and loudly say people like me are traitors? No. They do not. I'm not comfortable surrounded by so many people who are happy with an ideology that thrives on saying people like me are traitors, no matter how nice they are when they aren't talking politics. It's not "Do African Americans, women, Muslims or members of Group X either call people like me traitors or regularly vote for people who happily and loudly say people like me are traitors?" It's if poster X came in and said, "I lived in a predominately black neighborhood, and I don't have to guess which ones are X, I just know. I saw it first hand everyday and they are all the same." would you feel their generalizations were fair and rational? |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 11, 2015 23:05:51 GMT -5
I tell you what, thwhtguardian. If I ever have a political conversation with a conservative where I'm not bombarded by name-calling, talking points, straw man arguments, hypocrisy, double standards, slippery slopes and other rhetorical devices, I'll let you know.
I don't much appreciate the way you're mischaracterizing my original statements about discussions with conservatives. I have not said they are all terrible people. Some of them are very good people with many wonderful qualities. That's part of the tragedy, that the conservative movement has been hijacked by awful, greedy leaders.
I don't even understand your "I know which ones are X" remark. I was talking about people I have talked to about politics who identify as conservatives. I was not saying "I just know which ones are conservatives" and it's unfortunate you did not give me the benefit of the doubt over this misunderstanding.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 11, 2015 23:11:44 GMT -5
I'm hesitant to draw conclusions about an entire group of people. For every loud mouthed ignorant conservative, there are four more who are generally sensible, even if they are looking at different facts than you and I. I don't like to draw conclusions about an entire group of people either. Hence the use of the word "most." Perhaps I should have said "many"? But my opinion is based on lots of experience. Maybe I should have said "most conservative I have encountered"? My point still stands. And attacking me for forming my opinions based on my experience isn't doing a whole lot to convince me I'm wrong. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 12, 2015 5:29:15 GMT -5
And attacking me for forming my opinions based on my experience isn't doing a whole lot to convince me I'm wrong. You judged an entire group of people (or at least "most" of them). I said I was hesitant to do the same. I don't think I'm the one who did the attacking here. |
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