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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 13, 2016 17:11:11 GMT -5
And the Republican Party started out as the party of Lincoln. That & a couple of bucks will get you a cup of coffee. Thank you for saying that. I am so fekkin' tired of the simplistic history that the likes of Paul Ryan feed us.
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Post by The Captain on Jun 13, 2016 17:30:23 GMT -5
I'm really angry right now about the aftermath of the Orlando shooting and how it was being politicized only a few hours later.
Already forgotten are the 49 lives that were lost, how their futures were cut short in an act that was cowardly and truly evil.
They should be the focus, but instead the joke that is the Republican candidate has turned this into an attack on Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama to win points with his mouth-breathing supporters. Ban the foreigners, save our guns, call them radical Islamic terrorists; these were the words TWEETED by a man who wants to be the most powerful person in the world. Real leaders don't send out "hot takes" in 140 characters or less about critical issues but rather take time for measured and reasonable responses as Hillary did.
Sad, divisive, and ignorant, at a time that requires reflection and contemplative thinking about how to prevent a tragedy like this from happening again and how to stop hatred towards others, no matter what group they may be a part of.
My prayers go out to the families of the victims of the shooting that they may find some measure of comfort as they mourn the loss of their loved ones. My prayers go out to the LGBT community that they someday may live in an America that treats them as equals. My prayers go out to the leadership of this nation, both the current president and the next to sit in that position, that they may lead with wisdom and grace in these tumultuous times.
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Post by spoon on Jun 13, 2016 17:38:04 GMT -5
If the NRA really cared about the right to bear arms, they'd pay their whores to legalize nuclear weaponry ownership by individuals. You can't ban individuals from owning nuclear weapons, because people will just use guns instead to accomplish their goals. Sounds stupid, but that's an argument that I hear repeatedly from gun advocates. They say that it's pointless to ban gun, because people will just commit the same crimes with knives. It's fascinating when arguments that would insult the intelligence of a 10-year-old become key arguments of pro-gun people.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jun 13, 2016 18:44:12 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of guns, don't own one and have never hunted, but I'm by no means anti-gun. I agree wholeheartedly that all automatic and military grade weapons should be illegal. There's no excuse for those things being available for purchase by civilians. We all know that the only reason they're still legal is because the sales are making big money for the manufacturers and gun shows.
That said, I don't know if I'd be okay with ALL guns being made illegal. I've come around in my view on hunting, for instance, and feel that it's by far the most ethical way to eat meat (still hate trophy hunting) and small handguns designed for self-defense, particularly if you have a family, is just smart depending on your situation.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 13, 2016 19:53:29 GMT -5
That said, I don't know if I'd be okay with ALL guns being made illegal. I've come around in my view on small handguns designed for self-defense, particularly if you have a family, is just smart depending on your situation. This point I've heard many times, but it makes no sense to me : Aren't familie people much less subjected to gun violence then single people? But even if that wasn't the case, wouldn't single people be as much entitled and in need to defend themselves to defend if you abide to the gun ownership exception? I mean no offense, here, it just strikes me as a very strange argument.
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Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,173
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 13, 2016 20:22:23 GMT -5
I'm really angry right now about the aftermath of the Orlando shooting and how it was being politicized only a few hours later. Already forgotten are the 49 lives that were lost, how their futures were cut short in an act that was cowardly and truly evil. They should be the focus, but instead the joke that is the Republican candidate has turned this into an attack on Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama to win points with his mouth-breathing supporters. Ban the foreigners, save our guns, call them radical Islamic terrorists; these were the words TWEETED by a man who wants to be the most powerful person in the world. Real leaders don't send out "hot takes" in 140 characters or less about critical issues but rather take time for measured and reasonable responses as Hillary did. Sad, divisive, and ignorant, at a time that requires reflection and contemplative thinking about how to prevent a tragedy like this from happening again and how to stop hatred towards others, no matter what group they may be a part of. My prayers go out to the families of the victims of the shooting that they may find some measure of comfort as they mourn the loss of their loved ones. My prayers go out to the LGBT community that they someday may live in an America that treats them as equals. My prayers go out to the leadership of this nation, both the current president and the next to sit in that position, that they may lead with wisdom and grace in these tumultuous times. Sir, I salute you. Well said.
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Post by hondobrode on Jun 13, 2016 22:31:12 GMT -5
I'm really angry right now about the aftermath of the Orlando shooting and how it was being politicized only a few hours later. Already forgotten are the 49 lives that were lost, how their futures were cut short in an act that was cowardly and truly evil. They should be the focus, but instead the joke that is the Republican candidate has turned this into an attack on Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama to win points with his mouth-breathing supporters. Ban the foreigners, save our guns, call them radical Islamic terrorists; these were the words TWEETED by a man who wants to be the most powerful person in the world. Real leaders don't send out "hot takes" in 140 characters or less about critical issues but rather take time for measured and reasonable responses as Hillary did. Sad, divisive, and ignorant, at a time that requires reflection and contemplative thinking about how to prevent a tragedy like this from happening again and how to stop hatred towards others, no matter what group they may be a part of. My prayers go out to the families of the victims of the shooting that they may find some measure of comfort as they mourn the loss of their loved ones. My prayers go out to the LGBT community that they someday may live in an America that treats them as equals. My prayers go out to the leadership of this nation, both the current president and the next to sit in that position, that they may lead with wisdom and grace in these tumultuous times. Cap, I can only speak for myself, but I suspect most of us, Americans or otherwise, are disgusted and repulsed by Donald Trump and the hate speech / bile that poisons the airwaves. I've disagreed with conservatives on many things over the years but at least had respect for them and felt they were true to their beliefs and what they felt was best for the country (mostly for most of them). No one has ever begun to approach Donald Trump. Honestly, out of respect for the board, I will restrain from saying how I really feel.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Jun 14, 2016 2:36:38 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of guns, don't own one and have never hunted, but I'm by no means anti-gun. I agree wholeheartedly that all automatic and military grade weapons should be illegal. There's no excuse for those things being available for purchase by civilians. We all know that the only reason they're still legal is because the sales are making big money for the manufacturers and gun shows. That said, I don't know if I'd be okay with ALL guns being made illegal. I've come around in my view on hunting, for instance, and feel that it's by far the most ethical way to eat meat (still hate trophy hunting) and small handguns designed for self-defense, particularly if you have a family, is just smart depending on your situation. Automatic weapons are illegal. The AR-15 is often assumed to be an automatic weapon because it's the civilian version of the M16 but it's nothing more than a bog standard semi-automatic rifle, one of countless designs that make up the most commonly purchased type of weapon in America. It's not even a particularly powerful rifle. Many jurisdictions have banned it for deer hunting because the .223 caliber cartridge is too weak to reliably kill larger game. IMO the biggest problem regarding gun laws in the US is a lack of understanding from the people who oppose them. So much time and energy is wasted in debates just cleaning up the misinformation. It reminds me of the SOPA act from a few years back, when people with a minimal understanding of the internet were attempting to write legislation to regulate it. If people could get past the stock "ban all assault weapons!" kneejerk response the actual issue at hand could get some work done. Anyways, I'll believe gun control will stop mass shooting when I see a convincing argument for it. So far I haven't, so I don't. If America somehow becomes a gun free zone (a huge breach of the constitution, not that liberals seem to care about that anymore) all that's going to happen is a flood of guns over the Mexico border (which liberals don't seem to care about much either) to meet the massive demand and fill the vacuum. Prohibition doesn't work. It didn't work with alcohol, it's not working with drugs, it won't work with guns. Not in America, where guns are a fundamental part of the nation's DNA and Mexico is just one shoddy and neglected fence away. All I know is that if one man in that club was armed and had made just one clean shot lives would have been saved. But no one had a gun because they weren't allowed to have them, while the criminal piece of shit brought one anyway. Oddly enough, people who intend on committing murder aren't concerned about obeying gun laws, although they're perfectly content to exploit them by committing their crimes in areas where they know people will be unarmed.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 14, 2016 4:39:12 GMT -5
But that's not really the point COH... Do you really believe that a larger gun control would indeed increase mass shootings and casualties? It's not about whether larger gun control would effectivly decrease mass shootings but whether whether its implementation would effectivly increase the shootings and casualties. As the latter has yet to see the light in those modern days, if you don't really believe that there woud be more shootings/casualties, it is indeed intellectualy dishonnest andcriminal not to try it out. Edit : oh and I realize that this exchange between two members with gun wielding avatars can seem at odds with the topic at hand, so I feel the need to reafirm the reason for mine being the opposite of a celebration of weapons and violence.
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Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,173
Member is Online
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 14, 2016 6:01:38 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of guns, don't own one and have never hunted, but I'm by no means anti-gun. I agree wholeheartedly that all automatic and military grade weapons should be illegal. There's no excuse for those things being available for purchase by civilians. We all know that the only reason they're still legal is because the sales are making big money for the manufacturers and gun shows. That said, I don't know if I'd be okay with ALL guns being made illegal. I've come around in my view on hunting, for instance, and feel that it's by far the most ethical way to eat meat (still hate trophy hunting) and small handguns designed for self-defense, particularly if you have a family, is just smart depending on your situation. Automatic weapons are illegal. The AR-15 is often assumed to be an automatic weapon because it's the civilian version of the M16 but it's nothing more than a bog standard semi-automatic rifle, one of countless designs that make up the most commonly purchased type of weapon in America. It's not even a particularly powerful rifle. Many jurisdictions have banned it for deer hunting because the .223 caliber cartridge is too weak to reliably kill larger game. IMO the biggest problem regarding gun laws in the US is a lack of understanding from the people who oppose them. So much time and energy is wasted in debates just cleaning up the misinformation. It reminds me of the SOPA act from a few years back, when people with a minimal understanding of the internet were attempting to write legislation to regulate it. With all due respect, crazyoldhermit, my very limited understanding of weapons does not keep me from noticing that a man armed with an AR-15 can easily murder around fifty people on his own before the police can intervene. That's plenty lethal enough to warrant action. Didn't president Obama try to limit high capacity magazines? That would make mass murder a little more difficult, at least. But even such a tiny step would be too much for the NRA and its political friends
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jun 14, 2016 6:22:08 GMT -5
I was under the impression (from what little I know, granted) that many of these semi-automatic weapons can be modified to be more or less military grade.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jun 14, 2016 6:24:45 GMT -5
That said, I don't know if I'd be okay with ALL guns being made illegal. I've come around in my view on small handguns designed for self-defense, particularly if you have a family, is just smart depending on your situation. This point I've heard many times, but it makes no sense to me : Aren't familie people much less subjected to gun violence then single people? But even if that wasn't the case, wouldn't single people be as much entitled and in need to defend themselves to defend if you abide to the gun ownership exception? I mean no offense, here, it just strikes me as a very strange argument. I wasn't saying that people with families should have special access to handguns, just that certain people take their families safeties into consideration. Take Sam Harris. I'm a fan of his lectures, books and podcast. Given his hard stance against organized religion, particularly Islam, he gets frequent death threats. I can understand why he bought a handgun and learned how to properly use it through training. (He has a family and has discussed this on his podcast recently.)
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Post by Warmonger on Jun 14, 2016 7:26:07 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of guns, don't own one and have never hunted, but I'm by no means anti-gun. I agree wholeheartedly that all automatic and military grade weapons should be illegal. There's no excuse for those things being available for purchase by civilians. We all know that the only reason they're still legal is because the sales are making big money for the manufacturers and gun shows. That said, I don't know if I'd be okay with ALL guns being made illegal. I've come around in my view on hunting, for instance, and feel that it's by far the most ethical way to eat meat (still hate trophy hunting) and small handguns designed for self-defense, particularly if you have a family, is just smart depending on your situation. Automatic weapons are illegal. The AR-15 is often assumed to be an automatic weapon because it's the civilian version of the M16 but it's nothing more than a bog standard semi-automatic rifle, one of countless designs that make up the most commonly purchased type of weapon in America. It's not even a particularly powerful rifle. Many jurisdictions have banned it for deer hunting because the .223 caliber cartridge is too weak to reliably kill larger game. IMO the biggest problem regarding gun laws in the US is a lack of understanding from the people who oppose them. So much time and energy is wasted in debates just cleaning up the misinformation. It reminds me of the SOPA act from a few years back, when people with a minimal understanding of the internet were attempting to write legislation to regulate it. If people could get past the stock "ban all assault weapons!" kneejerk response the actual issue at hand could get some work done. Anyways, I'll believe gun control will stop mass shooting when I see a convincing argument for it. So far I haven't, so I don't. If America somehow becomes a gun free zone (a huge breach of the constitution, not that liberals seem to care about that anymore) all that's going to happen is a flood of guns over the Mexico border (which liberals don't seem to care about much either) to meet the massive demand and fill the vacuum. Prohibition doesn't work. It didn't work with alcohol, it's not working with drugs, it won't work with guns. Not in America, where guns are a fundamental part of the nation's DNA and Mexico is just one shoddy and neglected fence away. All I know is that if one man in that club was armed and had made just one clean shot lives would have been saved. But no one had a gun because they weren't allowed to have them, while the criminal piece of shit brought one anyway. Oddly enough, people who intend on committing murder aren't concerned about obeying gun laws, although they're perfectly content to exploit them by committing their crimes in areas where they know people will be unarmed. This If you outright ban guns, then what's to stop these nuts from taking 10 mins to google a simple pipe bomb recipe that they can make from shit underneath the kitchen sink? Are we then going to ban household cleaning supplies because they can be extremely dangerous if used inappropriately? Banning firearms solves nothing. If anything, it puts responsible gun owners at risk. A huge part of why this country hasn't been invaded in over 200 years is because every citizen over the age of 18 without a felonious past is allowed to own and operate a firearm.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 14, 2016 7:29:20 GMT -5
This point I've heard many times, but it makes no sense to me : Aren't familie people much less subjected to gun violence then single people? But even if that wasn't the case, wouldn't single people be as much entitled and in need to defend themselves to defend if you abide to the gun ownership exception? I mean no offense, here, it just strikes me as a very strange argument. I wasn't saying that people with families should have special access to handguns, just that certain people take their families safeties into consideration. Take Sam Harris. I'm a fan of his lectures, books and podcast. Given his hard stance against organized religion, particularly Islam, he gets frequent death threats. I can understand why he bought a handgun and learned how to properly use it through training. (He has a family and has discussed this on his podcast recently.) Yes, but that is a special case of a public figure : he might need extra protection not because he has a family but because he publicly bashes an overly touchy demographics. He probably would get access of a hand gun even if single in a country like the USA.. And I wasn't specifically aiming at you in my comment, but it reminded me how often we can see the "family" argument, some need to protect your family. That is what I think makes little sense in the debate for the aford mentioned point One thing that I thought about a lot recently though : through all my travels to the USA, I noticed a major difference with most european cultures, which is how normal it is for people to drink booze and take prescription drugs. I'm not saying that we don't drink or drug ourselves in Europe, but I was honestly shocked to see almost every single household I visited having some sort of minibar that was mostly put to use on a daily basis starting towards the end of the afternoon. Also, the way people use xanax and the likes of it really puzzled me. The combination of that, easy access to firearms, the big divides in society and growing solitude, those are the ingredients of impending doom, aren't they?
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Post by The Captain on Jun 14, 2016 8:01:36 GMT -5
Automatic weapons are illegal. The AR-15 is often assumed to be an automatic weapon because it's the civilian version of the M16 but it's nothing more than a bog standard semi-automatic rifle, one of countless designs that make up the most commonly purchased type of weapon in America. It's not even a particularly powerful rifle. Many jurisdictions have banned it for deer hunting because the .223 caliber cartridge is too weak to reliably kill larger game. IMO the biggest problem regarding gun laws in the US is a lack of understanding from the people who oppose them. So much time and energy is wasted in debates just cleaning up the misinformation. It reminds me of the SOPA act from a few years back, when people with a minimal understanding of the internet were attempting to write legislation to regulate it. If people could get past the stock "ban all assault weapons!" kneejerk response the actual issue at hand could get some work done. Anyways, I'll believe gun control will stop mass shooting when I see a convincing argument for it. So far I haven't, so I don't. If America somehow becomes a gun free zone (a huge breach of the constitution, not that liberals seem to care about that anymore) all that's going to happen is a flood of guns over the Mexico border (which liberals don't seem to care about much either) to meet the massive demand and fill the vacuum. Prohibition doesn't work. It didn't work with alcohol, it's not working with drugs, it won't work with guns. Not in America, where guns are a fundamental part of the nation's DNA and Mexico is just one shoddy and neglected fence away. All I know is that if one man in that club was armed and had made just one clean shot lives would have been saved. But no one had a gun because they weren't allowed to have them, while the criminal piece of shit brought one anyway. Oddly enough, people who intend on committing murder aren't concerned about obeying gun laws, although they're perfectly content to exploit them by committing their crimes in areas where they know people will be unarmed. This If you outright ban guns, then what's to stop these nuts from taking 10 mins to google a simple pipe bomb recipe that they can make from shit underneath the kitchen sink? Are we then going to ban household cleaning supplies because they can be extremely dangerous if used inappropriately? Banning firearms solves nothing. If anything, it puts responsible gun owners at risk. A huge part of why this country hasn't been invaded in over 200 years is because every citizen over the age of 18 without a felonious past is allowed to own and operate a firearm. Gun control is not BAN ALL GUNS. This is a lie that the NRA repeats and has been doing it for so long that people believe it. Gun control is having comprehensive background checks and reasonable waiting periods. Gun control is having a national database so that sellers in one state can see if a person has been declined purchase of a gun in another state for reasons of criminality or mental illness. Gun control is putting limits on what kinds of guns people can buy as well as limiting magazine sizes and types of ammunition such as armor-piercing rounds. Gun control is saying to John Q. Public that maybe he can't own 50+ guns even though he claims it's because he's "just a collector". Mind you, I don't hunt but I support the right of people who do hunt to own guns appropriate for that hobby, and I don't target shoot but I support the right of people to own the appropriate guns to do that as well. I will even begrudgingly support an individual's right to own a small-caliber handgun for personal protection, although I am very much against concealed carry laws that let them have said weapons in public; protect your house and your family within said house, but don't start firing at bad guys on the street, because I'm pretty sure you're going to be just as big a danger as the criminal. However, there comes a time and a place where we, as a nation, need to start asking ourselves if maybe the gun lobbyists need to be told to sit down and shut up while sensible individuals determine whether or not the average citizen needs to have access to weapons that are not fit for purpose for either hunting or target shooting. Maybe I'm overly sensitive as a parent, but as more and more events like this occur with death tolls that seem to rise with each one, my views on this are shifting to the side of caution.
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