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Post by tolworthy on Jun 16, 2014 23:32:20 GMT -5
Back on the Reed and Sue fiancée question, I knew I read it somewhere: the penultimate frame in FF 27 clarifies it. Sue loves Reed, but he's such a "blind fool" it's really hard to get through to him, so eh can't accept it. This explains why Namor was so attractive: such a breath of fresh air! Sue's temporary shakiness with Namor only lasted a few weeks: basically just issue 6. In issue 14 and annual 1 (very close together) she doesn't want to talk about it, but by the time of issue 27 any doubts are ancient history. Sue is sticking with her original choice.
Sue's interest in Namor is like Johnny horsing around with Ben: they were very brief periods in Stan and Jack's run. But most modern writers don't read more than the first couple of yeears so they think it's their defining characteristics.
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Post by berkley on Jun 17, 2014 0:07:17 GMT -5
The Sub-Mariner's the reverse of Reed in a lot of ways: physical and emotional as opposed to Reed's cold intellectualism; also of course foreign royalty as opposed to middle-class American Reed, but I don't think that's as important as the other contrast.
The thing about him that I think gets missed by a lot of artists and writers is that he's kind of the male equivalent to all the superheroines who walk around in outrageously skimpy costumes, and that that's why it's so natural that Sue Storm would be attracted to him, at the most basic level. Except for the speedo swim trunks he's going around near naked, in a completely unselfconscious way, so all the girls, and I suppose they gay male characters, are probably ogling his muscles and comparing him to the equally muscular but somehow more blocky and elaborately costumed superheroes they usually encounter. All the moreso for Sue Storm, who mostly gets to hang out with stuffy father-figure Reed, the monstrous Thing, and eternal little brother Johnny.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 17, 2014 7:51:35 GMT -5
Reed's hardly middle class. As early as FF #11, he's describing himself as "a millionaire's son."
Cei-U!
I summon the upper crust!
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Post by MDG on Jun 17, 2014 11:37:30 GMT -5
Reed's hardly middle class. As early as FF #11, he's describing himself as "a millionaire's son." I forgot that. But it makes sense in that Reed always struck me a someone who never had to worry about mundane things like making a living or where the next meal is coming from. |
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Post by berkley on Jun 17, 2014 19:21:17 GMT -5
Reed's hardly middle class. As early as FF #11, he's describing himself as "a millionaire's son." Cei-U! I summon the upper crust! Right you are. What was I thinking? |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 18, 2014 12:49:39 GMT -5
Incredible Hulk #3
Written by Stan Lee Pencils by Jack Kirby Inks by Dick Ayers  Cover: Dynamic cover, though the coloring is pretty subdued. It implies that The Hulk can now fly. Lots of text, but not bad. The Story: The first page is a dilly as we see The Hulk pounding in his Hulk prison as Rick Jones recounts how the change takes place and why Hulk/Banner are imprisoned. After leaving the Hulk locked up Jones is kidnapped at gunpoint by the Army. They apparently operate on U.S. soil with impunity in the MU. Rick is then tricked into luring the Hulk into a rocket by Thunderbolt Ross. The cover is that only the Hulk can survive the G-Forces and it's for “National Security”. I guess that Jones is a dumb kid and we can kind of forgive him for being tricked by Ross, though the guy has made no bones about hating the Hulk and wanting to capture him. So Jones risks life and limb to lure the Hulk into the rocket for love of country and codependence. After a short rampage The Hulk is shot into space. Of course meglomaniac that he is, Ross has to brag that The Hulk won't be coming back within hearing of Jones. And of course nobody is guarding the sensitive equipment that guides the rocket so Rick decides to “jam” the equipment and bring it back to Earth. Simultaneously The Hulk changes back to Banner and is bombarded by “radiation” in the rocket. There is “feedback” from this that goes through the guidance system to Rick. The rocket plummets back to Earth, but low and behold The Hulk is The Hulk in daytime...apparently through the magic of radiation. He chases Rick but just before he's going to go Ike Turner on him, Rick yells for him to stop (actually he doesn't, but Rick said he did) and The Hulk stops. Somehow the radiation and feedback allow Rick to control The Hulk. At least until Rick goes to sleep and The Hulk rampages through the town again. Rick awakens and stops his rampage, causing him to “fly” away. We end the first story with The Hulk back in his prison, since Rick knows he'll be out of control if he sleeps. We then get a three page recap of the origin...because it's the third issue...and we had a recap last issue too. The second story starts with a splash of The Ringmaster and part of what will become the Circus of Crime along with Rick and the Hulk. We actually open with the FBI investigating towns that have been looted and the citizens left in a daze. There seems to be no clue except every town has been visited by the same circus. Hmmmm...maybe there’s something to that. This is confirmed as we segue to the Ringmaster putting another town under hypnosis with is funky hat while his Circus loots the town. Meanwhile Rick Jones stops in at his Aunt Polly's house to clean up before he goes to the circus. Of course the Ringmaster is there. As Rick is hypnotized he calls out to the Hulk and he comes a-runnin'...or a jumpin...flyin'? The circus subdues the Hulk while he's waiting for his next order from Rick. Then they take him to the next town and display him there as part of the circus. Apparently Rick doesn't sleep between the shows. Because if he did he'd lose control of the Hulk. As the Ringmaster is about to do his thing the FBI come in with Rick Jones. The Hulk snaps out of it, but is uncontrollable for as long as the story needs it...then he's under the control of Rick Jones because that makes the story work at that point. He mops up the Circus just in time for the Army to come in because in pre-cell phone days the news that the Hulk was attacking a circus would get to the army in a different town in seconds. But the Hulk jumps/flies off with Rick as Ross vows again to rid the world of the menace. Thoughts…
It's pretty clear that Stan, Jack or both don't have a damn clue what to do with the Hulk as a protagonist. His look, his powers, his method of change keep changing. Having a pure anti-hero headlining the book was clearly making it hard on them in coming up with stories. What do you do with an uncontrollable monster? They keep trying to control him. Bruce Banner pretty much doesn't appear in this issue. Makes me wonder if they were considering getting rid of Banner as a character. Or maybe they just had no idea what they were doing. Both the Hulk and the Ringmaster's powers seem to be all over the place power-wise in this one. It's not at all clear whether the Hulk is actually flying in this one and later it gets forgotten, or if the folks are mistaking his jumping for flying. It's a Superman look to the fly/jump. So orphan Rick has an Aunt we haven't heard about. I guess he's still an orphan, but you don't feel quite as bad for him. The plot. Ehh...there's nothing particularly good or bad about either story. They're just kind of there. . The Art: Decent looking art in this one. The jumping/flying is hard to tell the difference. The toll: The massive lock on the Hulk cage. One jeep. One rocket capsule. One telephone poll. The corner of a brick building. One Big Top Grade for historic importance: B- The first Ringmaster. Story - C Art – B
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Post by Rob Allen on Jun 18, 2014 14:16:24 GMT -5
This is just a guess, but my impression is that Jack thought the Hulk was flying, and at this point Stan wasn't sure but an issue or two later Jack had the Hulk fly to China and Stan added captions that made it clear that he was leaping from island to island across the Pacific.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 18, 2014 14:41:42 GMT -5
This is just a guess, but my impression is that Jack thought the Hulk was flying, and at this point Stan wasn't sure but an issue or two later Jack had the Hulk fly to China and Stan added captions that made it clear that he was leaping from island to island across the Pacific. You can always count on Stan to find a way to make sure the stories all make sense.
(Actually, if he hopped up the coast of Canada and through Alaska, then jumped over the Bering Strait and down the coast of Russia, it actually makes sense. I'm kind of dubious that he hopped across the Pacific using islands.)
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Post by Rob Allen on Jun 18, 2014 14:53:49 GMT -5
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 18, 2014 15:31:01 GMT -5
Oh. OK. He was using airplanes as well, not just islands. Excuse my earlier sarcasm.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 18, 2014 15:59:28 GMT -5
I'm not an aeronautical engineer...but I have to think that a hurtling Hulk jumping onto a plane in mid-air would be pretty devastating.
A thought I should probably save for that issue.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 18, 2014 19:34:04 GMT -5
pseudo science and pseudo reality were the order of the day in the early 60's.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 18, 2014 19:41:06 GMT -5
pseudo science and pseudo reality were the order of the day in the early 60's. Ya think? |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 18, 2014 19:43:51 GMT -5
pseudo science and pseudo reality were the order of the day in the early 60's. Ya think? It's a wonder there wasn't a warning label on these comics. " Don't try this at home kids". |
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Post by tolworthy on Jun 18, 2014 20:33:31 GMT -5
pseudo science and pseudo reality were the order of the day in the early 60's. That is true, yet ironically they were more realistic than today's superhero comics, IMO. Powers were less and continuity mattered more, so all the crazy stuff is easier to explain. Take the Hulk's gravity and inertia defying feats for example. we can appeal to the Gladiator principle: in Fantastic Four 250 Reed observed that Gladiator's feats of strength were impossible using raw force alone (e.g. when he lifts an entire building the building should crumble). Reed therefore concluded that Gladiator's power is largely telekinetic. The same reasoning leads to the same conclusion for all other Hulk-level strong guys. In the old days we were expected to question stuff. For example, the very first page of Action Comics 1 gives a plausible explanation for why Supes has dense skin and why he can leap an eighth of a mile. Early issues of the Fantastic Four and Spider-Man had guides to how the powers worked. Sure, the science turned out to be wrong, but Stan was no scientist, it was as good as he could do. And since the powers back then were limited (like Superman's leaping ability) they weren't stretching believability too far. In modern comics we are expected to just accept pseudoscience, but back in the day we were expected to question it. The original meaning of "suspend disbelief" as coined by Horace, Shakespeare and Coleridge, was to temporarily suspend questions until after the show, because answers could be found later if needed. But modern comics do not suspend disbelief: they ignore it. The older writers may have known fewer facts, but they were more scientific IMO, because science is about asking questions. |
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