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Post by Paradox on Jun 5, 2015 0:37:39 GMT -5
The comic super-hero is too flexible to just get pitched out the door. You can shoe-horn just about any genre into a super-hero. It won't go away, but as Trebor mentions, it will change with the times. I still consider Gilgamesh to be the first super-hero, so this piddly 45 years is nothing.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 0:39:17 GMT -5
Marvel and DC are slowly slipping in their solid lead of the market. They tend to slip right back into the lead ever so often. The Big 2 will remain the Big 2. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jun 5, 2015 0:41:29 GMT -5
If you look at what Marvel and DC are doing, at least visually, there has been a slow progression toward phasing out a lot of the superhero tropes of the past. Hickman's Avengers story (I've only browsed the pages on Marvel Unlimited and read synopsis' online) seems to me to be the hardest science fiction story using classic superheroes to date. I think this is a mistake. For those of us who get it, those old absurdities are fundamental to the appeal. If you want "serious reality" you can find it in far greater quantities on TV, in films and in books.
All that aside, I must admit that the of the books I'm following currently (Saga, The Sixth Gun, Autumlands: Tooth & Claw, Five Ghosts, Ragnarok, Batman and Silver Surfer) only two are superhero comics. I'll always love the classic take on superheroes, but my tastes do seem to be leaning toward science fiction, fantasy, classic comic strips and historical fiction nowadays. (Prince Valiant and Bark's Duck's comics collections by Fantagraphics are now more precious to me than my classic Marvel collections.)
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Post by coke & comics on Jun 5, 2015 0:43:48 GMT -5
I still consider Gilgamesh to be the first super-hero, so this piddly 45 years is nothing. :D But he wasn't introduced until Captain America annual 11. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jun 5, 2015 0:46:11 GMT -5
The comic super-hero is too flexible to just get pitched out the door. You can shoe-horn just about any genre into a super-hero. It won't go away, but as Trebor mentions, it will change with the times. I still consider Gilgamesh to be the first super-hero, so this piddly 45 years is nothing. He even had a sidekick in Enkidu. The fascinating thing about Gilgamesh is that he starts out as an absolutely vile tyrant, yet his story is the father of all heroic fiction. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 5, 2015 5:19:22 GMT -5
I think the difference is that the medium is in decline. People with exciting new ideas are taking them to film and television (which are more lucrative), and the internet (which is more accessible). Comics as a medium only make sense to people who grew up on and already love comics -- thus people who are generally interested in preserving the status quo. That's really only the case in N America, though. Comics thrive in Europe and Asia. It's only Anglophonic comics that really seem to be suffering. It's really a strange situation when you look at the global sales of comics of all genres. Granted, but superheroes only dominate comics in America too  |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Jun 5, 2015 5:20:50 GMT -5
The comic super-hero is too flexible to just get pitched out the door. You can shoe-horn just about any genre into a super-hero. It won't go away, but as Trebor mentions, it will change with the times. One could argue that the comics we read today aren't even superhero comics anymore. They've gradually evolved away from costumed crime fighters going on patrol to, more often, become action-laced dramas about meta humans that have little to do with saving the world from corruption and evil. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 5:54:37 GMT -5
That's really only the case in N America, though. Comics thrive in Europe and Asia. It's only Anglophonic comics that really seem to be suffering. It's really a strange situation when you look at the global sales of comics of all genres. Granted, but superheroes only dominate comics in America too It's possible the two are related. |
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Post by Dizzy D on Jun 5, 2015 8:29:00 GMT -5
I always found it weird that Europe has basically zero superheroes. I am really trying hard to come up with a serious attempt of a European superhero (Not counting UK which always was more in line with the American comic industry than the mainland Europe industry.)
Japan does have superheroes, though they have their own spin on it (Kamen Rider probably being the archetype of the Japanese superhero, I guess. Manga-experts may correct me).
So it's weird that you have the American comic industry which is very dominated by superheroes vs. the other comic book industries which don't have them at all or in a very limited amount. Do we have that for any other artform/entertainment form? Maybe a bit with music styles, but even there the influences seem to be worldwide.
I think superheroes are here to stay. Just look at Image new titles. The successes of Saga and the Walking Dead and various Dark Horse and Vertigo titles before them have shown that you don't need superheroes to be successful, but many new titles are still superhero titles. So the average American comic writers and artists still want to say something about superheroes and work with them, possibly because most of their influences were superheroes. Also, though non-superheroes can be successful, the success doesn't seem to replicate to other titles. Walking Dead does well, Saga does well etc. but they are individual titles, no part of a bigger genre that is becoming popular. So new writers and artists will still mainly be influenced by superhero titles.
Eh... this became a bit rambling, I hope I managed to make my point somewhere.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 5, 2015 8:42:32 GMT -5
That's really only the case in N America, though. Comics thrive in Europe and Asia. It's only Anglophonic comics that really seem to be suffering. It's really a strange situation when you look at the global sales of comics of all genres. So the smart thing for me to do is learn French or Japanese! French is the way to go... that cover the European market AND Manga... most Manga gets translated into French FIRST... as often as not the English versions will be translated off the French one, rather than the original. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jun 5, 2015 8:46:52 GMT -5
Even though I love superhero comics, I'd really like to see more emphasis put on on fantasy and science fiction. Outside of Conan, it's very odd to me that epic fantasy and sword & sorcery isn't more popular in mainstream comics. It always seemed to me that there was a fair amount of overlap between fans of comics and fans of fantasy novels and Dungeons and Dragons, particularly in terms of the clientele of most old comic book stores.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 5, 2015 8:47:34 GMT -5
If you look at what Marvel and DC are doing, at least visually, there has been a slow progression toward phasing out a lot of the superhero tropes of the past. Hickman's Avengers story (I've only browsed the pages on Marvel Unlimited and read synopsis' online) seems to me to be the hardest science fiction story using classic superheroes to date. I think this is a mistake. For those of us who get it, those old absurdities are fundamental to the appeal. If you want "serious reality" you can find it in far greater quantities on TV, in films and in books. All that aside, I must admit that the of the books I'm following currently (Saga, The Sixth Gun, Autumlands: Tooth & Claw, Five Ghosts, Ragnarok, Batman and Silver Surfer) only two are superhero comics. I'll always love the classic take on superheroes, but my tastes do seem to be leaning toward science fiction, fantasy, classic comic strips and historical fiction nowadays. (Prince Valiant and Bark's Duck's comics collections by Fantagraphics are now more precious to me than my classic Marvel collections.) You could easily argue that Five Ghosts is a superhero comic... and if Thor is, isn't Ragnarok? I'll give you Saga as Sci-Fi/Romance and Sixth Gun as Supernatural Western (though there's certainly Superhero elements there). No idea about Autumnlands... I trade waited on that. I think Superheroes are VERY, VERY flexible, thus their staying power. Is Tim Hunter a superhero? Is Michael Weston(from Burn Notice)? How about the good guys in Walking Dead? Arguments could easily be made in favor. The other factor, of course, is their history. Regardless of how much they try to flush it, the fact that many Superhero characters have generation spanning histories is very appealing to alot of people, especially us long time fans. That said, I do enjoy seeing more other stuff, so more power to diversity! |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 5, 2015 8:51:18 GMT -5
Japan does have superheroes, though they have their own spin on it (Kamen Rider probably being the archetype of the Japanese superhero, I guess. Manga-experts may correct me). Japan has superheroes, they just don't wear American Superhero costumes, and are usually subsumed into another genre. Most people will tell you Dragon Ball/Z/GT/Kai/etc. is a Superhero book, but it's also a Martial Arts/Sci Fi book. The heroes wear gis there. One Piece is essentially Superhero Pirates. Naruto is Superhero Ninjas. Full Metal Alchemist has people who essential have Green Lantern's powers by drawing a circle instead of using a ring. What are Samurai but Superheroes with swords? You get the idea. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jun 5, 2015 8:55:16 GMT -5
Well, the Thor in Ragnarok is currently a draugr (basically a Norse undead warrior) from the classic Norse myths, as opposed to the Thor of the Marvel universe who lives among mortal superheroes. Ragnarok is clearly set in a dark fantasy landscape with a lot of magic, swords, wood paneling, etc. Five Ghosts is pulp-fiction and mixes a lot of genres, but it's obviously inspired by things like Indiana Jones, pirate stories, Gothic horror, etc. I can't think of any superhero trappings in and off itself. Of course Fabian Gray could easily be transplanted into the Marvel or DC universes, but that speaks more to my opinion that the superhero genre is an amalgam of many specialized genres.
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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 5, 2015 9:55:22 GMT -5
That's really only the case in N America, though. Comics thrive in Europe and Asia. It's only Anglophonic comics that really seem to be suffering. It's really a strange situation when you look at the global sales of comics of all genres. So the smart thing for me to do is learn French or Japanese! Not necessarily. I'm more conversant with the Euro comics side of the equation, and there's actually been a bonanza of material translated into English over the past few years by Humanoids, Archaia, and Titan. IDW just started Euro-comics division with Corto Maltese, and they have plans for Alack Sinner upcoming. This has probably been the best time to pursue translated Euro comics since the '70s heyday of Heavy Metal, and these series have been given far more care as far as translation and format compared to their '70s counterparts. |
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