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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 5, 2015 10:02:54 GMT -5
You could easily argue that Five Ghosts is a superhero comic... and if Thor is, isn't Ragnarok? I'll give you Saga as Sci-Fi/Romance and Sixth Gun as Supernatural Western (though there's certainly Superhero elements there). No idea about Autumnlands... I trade waited on that. I think you can make an argument for Five Ghosts, although I'd say it's more of a traditional adventure comic, something we don't see all that much these days. (It's basically Corto Maltese with a supernatural angle.) Ragnarok is more squarely in the fantasy genre, and it's pretty dark fantasy at that. This Thor has very little resemblance to Marvel's Thor besides the name. (Even the hammer is used in a very different manner.) If the Thor comic has trappings from Norse mythology, Ragnarok is a continuation of Norse mythology. I'd also put Autumnlands more squarely in the fantasy genre, but it's lead character has some superhero elements much in the way that Judge Dredd has superhero elements. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 5, 2015 10:47:38 GMT -5
It depends on how you define "super-hero." If you mean costumed crimefighters, with or without superhuman or super-scientific powers, then maybe. But the need for stories about heroes and villains who operate at a level above human beings seems to be a constant, bridging time and culture, so I doubt they'll ever go away unless and until the very nature of mankind changes.
Cei-U!
I summon deep thoughts from a shallow mind!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 11:32:07 GMT -5
I think the American superhero formula is far more specific than "Person with extraordinary abilities" so I don't consider much outside to be super heroes. Jesus isn't a super hero. Not unless he wears spandex, has 300lbs of muscle on him, and he has an annual crossover with Ganesha where he dies. And then comes back when his regular series is rebooted. I also find very little of what I'd personally consider super heroes in international comics. I'm sure it happens, but it's not common at all. I think the real reason is American comics pretty much got it covered, and people overseas are probably a bit more used to imported American entertainment, so they'll just buy the American Spiderman if they want a superhero comic.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 11:33:50 GMT -5
I always found it weird that Europe has basically zero superheroes. I am really trying hard to come up with a serious attempt of a European superhero (Not counting UK which always was more in line with the American comic industry than the mainland Europe industry.) Japan does have superheroes, though they have their own spin on it (Kamen Rider probably being the archetype of the Japanese superhero, I guess. Manga-experts may correct me). So it's weird that you have the American comic industry which is very dominated by superheroes vs. the other comic book industries which don't have them at all or in a very limited amount. Do we have that for any other artform/entertainment form? Maybe a bit with music styles, but even there the influences seem to be worldwide. I think superheroes are here to stay. Just look at Image new titles. The successes of Saga and the Walking Dead and various Dark Horse and Vertigo titles before them have shown that you don't need superheroes to be successful, but many new titles are still superhero titles. So the average American comic writers and artists still want to say something about superheroes and work with them, possibly because most of their influences were superheroes. Also, though non-superheroes can be successful, the success doesn't seem to replicate to other titles. Walking Dead does well, Saga does well etc. but they are individual titles, no part of a bigger genre that is becoming popular. So new writers and artists will still mainly be influenced by superhero titles. Eh... this became a bit rambling, I hope I managed to make my point somewhere. I think mech robots are Japan's superhero. I'll agree Dragonball is pretty close to an American superhero comic. But they love the robots. Even their TMNT cartoon involved transforming robots. I'm surprised Iron Man isn't a huge hit out there. |
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Post by MDG on Jun 5, 2015 12:03:09 GMT -5
This popped up on my Facebook feed yesterday: Full interview: www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/superhero-free-zone-the-weird-comics-of-daniel-clowes-1.2234747But i think the reason superheroes (and things that look like superheroes) hang on is that they were created in comicbooks (the Phantom notwithstanding) and were the foundation of their early popularity, and, since the code, have been the source of their growth spurts (Marvel and Batmania in the 60s; Burton Batman and Image, et. al in the early 90s). Even when DC made concerted efforts to push other genres in the late silver/early bronze or in the 80s, they didn't get far. And many of the independents that popped up in the 80s to counter superheroes fell by the wayside (Pacific, First, Renegade, etc.). The ones that didn't (like Fantagraphics) set their eyes on a totally different audience. Also, until the 2000s, no other media could do superheroes in the same way as they could be done in comics. Even the good things (Superman TV, Batman TV, Superman 78) didn't try to reproduce everything comics could do. At this point, though, Marvel and DC are superhero marketing companies--they don't have much interest pushing anything else. MDG |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 12:15:39 GMT -5
I still give DC credit for Vertigo, but Marvel yeah. Super heroes and the occasional licensed comic.
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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 5, 2015 12:40:46 GMT -5
At this point, though, Marvel and DC are superhero marketing companies--they don't have much interest pushing anything else. MDG Setting aside Vertigo-- because it's arguable how much of a push DC actually gives its current Vertigo ongoings-- I was very interested in three of the new books that DC put out last Wednesday, mostly because none of them felt like a traditional superhero book. Omega Men had the tone of a brutal 2000AD sci-fi series (Nemesis, Shakara), and invoked that with similiar pacing and art that would seem more at home in 2000AD than a N American superhero title. Bizarro had the sensibilities of a Mad/Steve Gerber/Kyle Baker humor book, not what you'd expect from a Super-book for a long time. Midnighter was the most traditional of the three I read, but even that invoked more of an '80s independent action series (think Grimjack or Grendel: Devil's Legacy), right down to the art that felt like vintage Pander Bros' art with a bit of Colin Wilson. All of these books do suggest that DC is still willing to try different things and to support creators trying different things, not just mine their intellectual properties for different media. It was quite refreshing to see.
Of course, the real question is whether any of these books will develop audiences that can sustain them.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 5, 2015 13:33:31 GMT -5
Jesus isn't a super hero. Not unless he wears spandex, has 300lbs of muscle on him, and he has an annual crossover with Ganesha where he dies. And then comes back when his regular series is rebooted. I just couldn't resist....  |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 5, 2015 13:48:42 GMT -5
Well, the Thor in Ragnarok is currently a draugr (basically a Norse undead warrior) from the classic Norse myths, as opposed to the Thor of the Marvel universe who lives among mortal superheroes. Ragnarok is clearly set in a dark fantasy landscape with a lot of magic, swords, wood paneling, etc. Five Ghosts is pulp-fiction and mixes a lot of genres, but it's obviously inspired by things like Indiana Jones, pirate stories, Gothic horror, etc. I can't think of any superhero trappings in and off itself. Of course Fabian Gray could easily be transplanted into the Marvel or DC universes, but that speaks more to my opinion that the superhero genre is an amalgam of many specialized genres. True, but what I'm saying is we do consider Marvel's Thor a superhero, right? He has plenty of Norse myth-based adventures, yet he's still a Superhero. I agree that Five Ghosts isn't a Biff Pow sort of comic, but Fabian Gray is clearly a superhero... he travels the world righting wrongs and fighting evildoers with his extraordinary abilities... if that's not a superhero, what is? Now, the idea that 'Superhero' is really an amalgam of other genres, and that's why other things can fit in so easily... that's another idea all together... I like it! |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 5, 2015 13:50:58 GMT -5
I think mech robots are Japan's superhero. I'll agree Dragonball is pretty close to an American superhero comic. But they love the robots. Even their TMNT cartoon involved transforming robots. I'm surprised Iron Man isn't a huge hit out there. To be honest, I think giant robot mangas are kinda passe at this point... mostly, manga is all about the feelz these days... they just put mixed groups of teenagers in a variety of situations and let the angst commence. |
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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 5, 2015 14:15:40 GMT -5
Well, the Thor in Ragnarok is currently a draugr (basically a Norse undead warrior) from the classic Norse myths, as opposed to the Thor of the Marvel universe who lives among mortal superheroes. Ragnarok is clearly set in a dark fantasy landscape with a lot of magic, swords, wood paneling, etc. Five Ghosts is pulp-fiction and mixes a lot of genres, but it's obviously inspired by things like Indiana Jones, pirate stories, Gothic horror, etc. I can't think of any superhero trappings in and off itself. Of course Fabian Gray could easily be transplanted into the Marvel or DC universes, but that speaks more to my opinion that the superhero genre is an amalgam of many specialized genres. True, but what I'm saying is we do consider Marvel's Thor a superhero, right? He has plenty of Norse myth-based adventures, yet he's still a Superhero. I agree that Five Ghosts isn't a Biff Pow sort of comic, but Fabian Gray is clearly a superhero... he travels the world righting wrongs and fighting evildoers with his extraordinary abilities... if that's not a superhero, what is? Now, the idea that 'Superhero' is really an amalgam of other genres, and that's why other things can fit in so easily... that's another idea all together... I like it! I do agree that "superhero" is an amalgamation of other genres, and I think you can make a case for Five Ghosts as a superhero comic, although I wouldn't classify it as such. It's a superhero book in the way that Hellboy is a superhero book-- the figurative superhero dna is certainly part of its makeup, but it's not necessarily the prevailing element.
Ragnarok, no, I don't think so... First of all, I'd be hard pressed to call the Thor of Ragnarok a hero at all-- he's a survivor, and he's willing to go to some lengths to ensure that survival. Even when he helps that village in issue 4, it's more because that's where he happens to be rather than any altruistic motivation. Second, Marvel's Thor works as a superhero because he's built into the framework of a superhero universe. Ragnarok is post-apocalyptic, and really, it's about survival for this Thor first, figuring out what happened second, and revenge (not necessarily justice) third. This Thor is not a hero. A protagonist, yeah, but not a hero. We wouldn't have called Hinterkind a superhero comic even though it featured powered characters struggling for survival in a post-apocalyptic world. Much like Ragnarok, Hinterkind takes character types from folklore and converts them into protagonists in a fantastic world.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 5, 2015 14:25:59 GMT -5
Yeah, that's a good point... I wouldn't call Hinterkind any sort of superhero comic... I can see Ragnarok more as post-apocalyptic. Issue 4 was a bit superhero-y I thought, but the first 3 weren't really.
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Post by dupersuper on Jun 5, 2015 14:42:17 GMT -5
I certainly hope not.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Jun 5, 2015 16:07:47 GMT -5
My thought is that they started for kids in the 50's and 60's. Adults read them but that grew to prominence in the 70's. The 80's saw a darker tone, the 90's saw overload and maybe things would have crashed but movies and TV have been pumping out stuff now for years, getting better and better.
It is a North American culture thing. It is art. It is a part of heritage. The other "things" you mentioned were more so sub genres that were hot. Much like certain heroes and titles get hot. I really doubt they will ever go away. To be fair though, when was the last time a "new superhero" was created that blew up the market? Spawn? Even he is getting older and older and eventually we may need to see a new "hero" emerge to keep the genre going but until then, I think the movies are keeping the classics alive. Heck, WE are keeping them alive, by passing the passion on to our kids or relatives.
Superheroes will never die. It is the ultimate fantasy and while other genres may have their moments in the sun (like zombies currently), the superhero will always remain strong because it is America's original art form.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 5, 2015 16:33:48 GMT -5
My thought is that they started for kids in the 50's and 60's.... Yeah, I pretty much blame the comics code in 1954 for the crappy state of American comics as compared to their Japanese or European counterparts. They were basically artistically hamstrung and their reliance on one kid-friendly genre is a result of that. |
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