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Post by chadwilliam on Jun 7, 2015 17:04:28 GMT -5
Inspired by an old issue of World's Finest in which Superman challenges Batman to a battle of deductive wits and loses, I thought I'd start a thread showcasing those comics where one superhero is matched against another and either wins or loses. None of that "It was a draw!" nonsense (a la the earliest Superman/Flash races) or "So and so lost, but there's a catch" stuff (Batman takes a dive as part of a plan to catch some crooks) - I'm talking about those instances where two heroes are evenly matched, give it all they've got, and for one of the good guys, it just isn't enough.
World's Finest 149 has always stuck out in my mind as containing an unusual occurrence for a team-up book. A hoax gets Superman wondering if his secret identity is as well guarded as he'd like to believe. With Batman's permission, Superman enlists the world's greatest detective to see if he can deduce his alter ego after that secret has been wiped from his mind. After a few unsuccessful attempts, Batman succeeds only for an envious Superman to brag that that if the situation were reversed, he could learn Batman's identity just as easily even without the use of superpowers. Superman fails time and again, until Batman realizes that since this isn't the best use of either of their time, he'll just allow Superman to find out his identity without realizing that he let him do so. So, as far as Superman's concerned, he's just as good as Batman - but as the story made clear, Batman was clearly his better in this story.
The reason this story stands out is because I also remember World's Finest being one of those titles where in spite of the inequity of the two heroes powers, Batman and Superman were treated as equals. Sure, Batman wasn't as strong or as fast as Superman, but writers were always careful to show that he could still accomplish what his Kryptonian pal could, but just in his own way. I also remember the first Superman/Flash race in which - as great as the story was - its purpose was undermined by having the two race to a tie - that way fans of the losing hero wouldn't be upset. I know that World's Finest 199 would actually have a clear winner in the Superman/Flash race at end of that two-parter, but for the most part, it seemed rare that one superhero could outshine another.
Off the top of my head, I can think of Marvel making it clear that as great as a battle between The Thing and the Hulk would be, The Thing would never last for long in a one-on-one slugfest against the jade giant. Other than that, I can't really think of any battles (mental or physical) resulting in anything other than a tie or at best, ambiguous victory, between two superheroes.
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Post by gothos on Jun 7, 2015 17:48:46 GMT -5
The most famous to my mind is the first encounter of Daredevil and the Sub-Mariner. DD tries to keep the rampaging sea-lord from annihilating a detachment of soldiers in his path (I don't know why, most Marvel powerhouses regularly tore through legions of soldiers without causing any fatalities, at least so far as we knew). Anyway, it's clear that DD has no real chance to stop Sub-Mariner; and the Man W/o Fear is near collapse when he pleads with Namor to leave the troops alone. Namor does, so DD wins a moral victory-- but definitely not a physical one. I guess the idea could've come from artist Wally Wood, but it seems more likely to have evolved from Stan, seeking to change up his formula every once in a while, precisely because "the same old draw" would have become stale.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 7, 2015 20:29:56 GMT -5
The Golden Age Green Lantern's effortless takedown of Guy Gardner in the Strzewski/Parobek JSA series still fills me with glee all these years later.
Cei-U!
Take that, a**hole!
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Post by Dizzy D on Jun 8, 2015 11:15:21 GMT -5
The most famous to my mind is the first encounter of Daredevil and the Sub-Mariner. DD tries to keep the rampaging sea-lord from annihilating a detachment of soldiers in his path (I don't know why, most Marvel powerhouses regularly tore through legions of soldiers without causing any fatalities, at least so far as we knew). Anyway, it's clear that DD has no real chance to stop Sub-Mariner; and the Man W/o Fear is near collapse when he pleads with Namor to leave the troops alone. Namor does, so DD wins a moral victory-- but definitely not a physical one. I guess the idea could've come from artist Wally Wood, but it seems more likely to have evolved from Stan, seeking to change up his formula every once in a while, precisely because "the same old draw" would have become stale. A similar story was Daredevil's fight with the Hulk during Miller's run years later. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jun 8, 2015 11:26:45 GMT -5
Inspired by an old issue of World's Finest in which Superman challenges Batman to a battle of deductive wits and loses, I thought I'd start a thread showcasing those comics where one superhero is matched against another and either wins or loses. None of that "It was a draw!" nonsense (a la the earliest Superman/Flash races) or "So and so lost, but there's a catch" stuff (Batman takes a dive as part of a plan to catch some crooks) - I'm talking about those instances where two heroes are evenly matched, give it all they've got, and for one of the good guys, it just isn't enough.
World's Finest 149 has always stuck out in my mind as containing an unusual occurrence for a team-up book. A hoax gets Superman wondering if his secret identity is as well guarded as he'd like to believe. With Batman's permission, Superman enlists the world's greatest detective to see if he can deduce his alter ego after that secret has been wiped from his mind. After a few unsuccessful attempts, Batman succeeds only for an envious Superman to brag that that if the situation were reversed, he could learn Batman's identity just as easily even without the use of superpowers. Superman fails time and again, until Batman realizes that since this isn't the best use of either of their time, he'll just allow Superman to find out his identity without realizing that he let him do so. So, as far as Superman's concerned, he's just as good as Batman - but as the story made clear, Batman was clearly his better in this story.
The reason this story stands out is because I also remember World's Finest being one of those titles where in spite of the inequity of the two heroes powers, Batman and Superman were treated as equals. Sure, Batman wasn't as strong or as fast as Superman, but writers were always careful to show that he could still accomplish what his Kryptonian pal could, but just in his own way. I also remember the first Superman/Flash race in which - as great as the story was - its purpose was undermined by having the two race to a tie - that way fans of the losing hero wouldn't be upset. I know that World's Finest 199 would actually have a clear winner in the Superman/Flash race at end of that two-parter, but for the most part, it seemed rare that one superhero could outshine another.
Off the top of my head, I can think of Marvel making it clear that as great as a battle between The Thing and the Hulk would be, The Thing would never last for long in a one-on-one slugfest against the jade giant. Other than that, I can't really think of any battles (mental or physical) resulting in anything other than a tie or at best, ambiguous victory, between two superheroes.
I love the patronizing attitude towards Superman. Batman having to trick him just to satisfy his ego and he can go back to actually helping people. Brilliant. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 8, 2015 12:30:35 GMT -5
The Defenders won the Avengers Defenders war. I don't think they even lost a match, although Captain America/Sub-Mariner was basically a draw.
Thor was considerably more powerful than Daredevil when they briefly clashed, circa DD 29-30. (Matt Murdock had disquised himself as Thor, see.....)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 13:41:52 GMT -5
The Golden Age Green Lantern's effortless takedown of Guy Gardner in the Strzewski/Parobek JSA series still fills me with glee all these years later. Cei-U! Take that, a**hole! Then there's the classic "one punch" with Gardner and Batman...   No ambiguity in that outcome... -M |
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Post by dupersuper on Jun 8, 2015 14:12:44 GMT -5
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