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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 22, 2015 11:58:15 GMT -5
I lot is being made about Bendis' Iron Man being announced as the new 'Flagship Title' for Marvel... much like Uncanny Avengers was called that at the start of Marvel Now!
So, my question to you, is what makes a title the 'flagship' and what was it?
I'd definitely say Marvel's first Superhero flagship title was the Fantastic Four... new characters were almost required to stop by the Baxter Building back in the day. X-Men and Daredevil were both advertised as being like Fantastic Four (weird for the latter, yes). Two of the four characters got solo titles... it's real clear.
What's not clear is when it changed... does it go all the way to the end of Byrne's run, when Spidey took over? Or sooner? Maybe the black costume?
Was Avengers ever the flagship title? (Maybe under Englehart?). Once the 90s hit, it was different.. we then had 'franchises' instead of titles.... it was definitely the X-Men's time, but I'm not sure you could call X-Men or Uncanny the 'flagship' in the way FF was in the 60s.
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Post by paulie on Jun 22, 2015 12:10:27 GMT -5
I lot is being made about Bendis' Iron Man being announced as the new 'Flagship Title' for Marvel... much like Uncanny Avengers was called that at the start of Marvel Now! So, my question to you, is what makes a title the 'flagship' and what was it? I'd definitely say Marvel's first Superhero flagship title was the Fantastic Four... new characters were almost required to stop by the Baxter Building back in the day. X-Men and Daredevil were both advertised as being like Fantastic Four (weird for the latter, yes). Two of the four characters got solo titles... it's real clear. What's not clear is when it changed... does it go all the way to the end of Byrne's run, when Spidey took over? Or sooner? Maybe the black costume? Was Avengers ever the flagship title? (Maybe under Englehart?). Once the 90s hit, it was different.. we then had 'franchises' instead of titles.... it was definitely the X-Men's time, but I'm not sure you could call X-Men or Uncanny the 'flagship' in the way FF was in the 60s. There is only one Flagship Marvel Title: Fantastic Four. Everything else is just a marketing ploy. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 22, 2015 12:15:49 GMT -5
Still? Even assuming they re-start it, I'd say the relevance to the MU as a whole of the FF has dropped quite a bit... yes, Hickman likes them (well, he like Doom, Valeria, and Franklin at least), but I don't think it's the same. Certainly not during, say Defalco's run in the 90s, or Robinson's most recent one.
I'd actually argue they don't have one anymore.. they tried to make it X-Men when they did the new #1 with with Jim Lee, but that didn't work.. I think there's just too many titles for one to have such importance these days.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 12:19:41 GMT -5
I agree with you on the Fantastic Four in the Sixties, X-Men in the Seventies, and anything after that was pretty much in the air. However, I think a little bit differently than you do. When I think of "Flagship Title" ... this term is rather difficult to understand to me. But, I think in terms of popularity and sales throughout it's time at Marvel Comics here's my take of the top ten (and it's spinoffs) titles of all time.
1. The Amazing Spiderman
2. X-Men
3. Iron Man
4. Captain America
5. Incredible Hulk
6. The Mighty Thor
7. The Fantastic Four
8. The Silver Surfer
9. Daredevil
10. Nick Fury
Any of these "titles" and it's spinoffs can be qualified for such "Flagship Status" as long the Publisher can call and promote it. To me, when I think of Marvel Comics - the 1st Hero that I can qualified for is the Amazing Spiderman, Iron Man, and the Incredible Hulk.
For Teams it's always the X-Men and the Fantastic Four. Avengers, The Defenders, and all others doesn't hold a candle of the Fantastic Four and the X-Men.
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Post by sabongero on Jun 22, 2015 12:44:01 GMT -5
I am not sure how Marvel interpret's the word, "flagship."
In naval terms it is either a lead ship in a fleet of vessels, or the vessel used by the commanding officer of a group of naval vessels.
If Marvel views Brian Michael Bendis as their "fleet admiral," then they consider his next big project as their flagship. Whether, the comic book buyers will reflect that notion in terms of sales is another matter. A solo character does not necessarily reflect the term flagship if others don't agree with that notion.
DC can always say that their flagship character is Superman or Batman with Superman taking a slight lead. Their flagship team book would definitely be Justice League of America.
In Marvel, just because the Iron Man movies where blockbusters, does not endear it a term of a flagship character. But perhaps because Bendis has a lot of say in it. After all he has a lot of trade paperbacks that are still selling quite well.
If there is a character that would define the flagship of Marvel it would have to be decided on Marvel's Trinity, like the equivalent of DC's Trinity (Supes, Bats, and Wondy.) Now the question is, who are Marvel's Trinity? I would definitely say Spider-Man is one of them, and the other two is up to debate.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 22, 2015 13:05:20 GMT -5
I'd agree with sabongero in the definition of the term. By that definition Marvel could claim whatever title they wanted as flagship, but to stay in the definition the title would feature a lead in the whole universe's stories. Especially as everything is damned event these days. The flagship title would be the one that lead all others through the crux of the story. The one essential title that bears the weight of the story. Like the Avengers films do in getting to whatever end game they started with all the individual Marvel movies ten years ago. No one needs to see Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, etc to get what is happening to the world in Avengers movies. In that definition, if that's what Marvel is doing, and not just using at as a promotional gimmick, I can only think that Avengers, in almost every event in Marvel history I have read, has been that.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 22, 2015 13:13:17 GMT -5
I never considered such a directly analogy, but that totally makes sense! You can even apply it backwards... though I'm not sure Conan really was the flagship when Roy Thomas was in charge.. they certainly marketed it heavily.
more love in the box office, and the X-Men sell more comics. It's hard to even pinpoint a flagship character for the X-Men. Sure, it USED to be Wolverine, but now he's dead, and even before he died, he was being moved out of
the X-Men to the wider universe. Now, it could be Kitty Pryde, or Storm, or Cyclops, or Magneto, or maybe even Emma Frost.
If you go by Marketing, back in the day it was always Cap, Thing, Spidey and Hulk.. with Iron Man, Torch, and Conan running just behind.
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Post by sabongero on Jun 22, 2015 13:14:08 GMT -5
God I love this website and I am so thankful to come across it last week. I miss these type of genuine interactions about comic books/graphic novels. And you can tell the appreciation towards the sequential arts medium by the way the posters convey their messages.
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Post by sabongero on Jun 22, 2015 13:20:48 GMT -5
I suppose as it was mentioned in one of the above posts, what would be considered the flagship title of a publisher would depend on the decade. After the 90s the flagship title seems to be up in the air.
But if the yearly big events limited series would be taken into consideration, and show just how much impact it has in the overall Marvel Universe, then the character(s) that had the most impact on that event should be considered at least as a flagship title. But if that is the case, it can be even more confusing.
I suppose, it is whoever has the most pull with the corporate office that can officially have the corporate office give the blessing to which or what will be the flagship title of Marvel.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 22, 2015 13:49:46 GMT -5
Most modern events have a mini series that series as it's 'Flagship'.. event if it's not line-wide. I can't recall the last one that didn't, honestly... Operation: Galactic Storm maybe? Or maybe the last Eclipso even over at DC? While it's true most Marvel event revolve around the Avengers, they sometimes barely touch the actual Avengers title, lest they disturb Hickman. Man, do I ever hate that guy.  |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 22, 2015 13:57:00 GMT -5
And that pull could be directed at whatever title Marvel's flagship writer is, which for some reason still seems to be Bendis, because they allow him to effect the Marvel universe (though I am sure with some limitations) as he wants to. So whatever title Bendis is on is the one he's going to use to shape the Marvel universe .. i.e. take the lead. So in that case it could shift from title to title, or at least from one character to another. Especially since any of the original (since every character is/has been an Avenger at some point) have the power and depth of character to lead the Marvel universe as a flagship character.
So to me, in this light, the FF never fit the bill, as the Avengers title has, or the characters making up the team individually. I've read three good chunks of FF, Lee/Kirby, Byrne, and Claremont/Larroca and have always felt they were, besides maybe Lee/Kirby, as it was all there really was for Marvel, they were pretty self contained, and other than Galactus coming or something of that nature, never intended to pave the way for the events of other titles. That was long before Secret Wars, the mini thought to have created the "event". (Or maybe COIE? There's people on this forum far my intellectual in comic history than me.)
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 22, 2015 14:02:07 GMT -5
Most modern events have a mini series that series as it's 'Flagship'.. event if it's not line-wide. I can't recall the last one that didn't, honestly... Operation: Galactic Storm maybe? Or maybe the last Eclipso even over at DC? While it's true most Marvel event revolve around the Avengers, they sometimes barely touch the actual Avengers title, lest they disturb Hickman. Man, do I ever hate that guy. I do know that GS didn't. It was either 2 or 3 issues of 5-6 different titles. AoA one of my favorites of all time, technically didn't, but if one wanted the gist of the story it was found in Astonishing X-Men. All references from other titles were made in Astonishing X-Men making it the one you could read to get it all, whether that was intentional or not. Then the two bookends, Alpha and Omega. I don't remember any of the present Spiderman titles during Clone Saga really taking the lead either. Though I remember the real "earth shattering" events taking place in Amazing like Aunt May's death. I've never read anything Hickman. He sounds like he's your bane as Bendis' is mine. :-) |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 22, 2015 14:07:08 GMT -5
He is.... I think I hate him more than you hate Bendis, actually (though such things are hard to measure).
I'm pretty sure the Clone Saga at least had one shot bookends, but yeah, that was probably a little after Galactic Storm. That might have been one of the post-clone spin offs, too. AoA I suppose didn't technically have a mini.. it had like 12 of them.. but you're right, sine those were techincally re-titling the existing books... I hadn't thought of that.
The FF definitely DID fit that description for its first, oh, 5 years or so. Spidey goes to Reed Richards to see what's up with him in Spiderman #1. Xavier talks to Reed within a couple issues, and Johnny Storm and Bobby Drake are sorta buddies. The FF are on the cover of Daredevil #1... they crossed with the Avengers in cameos constantly.... every hero in the MU was at Reed and Sue's wedding for FF annual #3. Silver Surfer, Namor (for the Silver Age) Galactus, Black Panther... all debuted in FF. I'd say that's pretty important! After Lee/Kiby left, it's debatable, but not before.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 22, 2015 16:09:32 GMT -5
That is a fair bit of new characters, now that I think about it, even my namesake. I guess with that information, yeah FF could easily take that title from the start of it. Most of my Lee/Kirby FF and later. Him's appearance is the earliest issue I have. I don't think it would hurt for me to check the library for some FF. They have at least a good selection of Essentials for me to get familiar with early FF.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 22, 2015 16:12:11 GMT -5
I consider the Avengers to be the flagship title. It has spun into multiple sister titles ( New Avengers, Young Avengers, Mighty, Uncanny etc). Also, the major events were spun off from that title. Civil War, Secret Invasion were the major impact events that changed the MU for a while. The entire current reset was from a story begun in New Avengers.
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