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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 16:34:42 GMT -5
Probably not. Paper prices and gas prices have both outpaced inflation as well, and those are two major costs of companies printing and shipping books to market. Having a middle man like Diamond causes a certain need to raise the cover price to meet costs as I have pointed out before, of that $3.99 Marvel gets $1, Diamond $2 (but pays $1 so makes $1) and the retailer $4 (but pays $2 or a little more if shipping prices are included) so makes $2 or less. So Marvel gets $1 for every book they sell to Diamond, Diamond gets a $1 for every book from Marvel and every other publisher as well they sell to retailers (which is everything they bought from them usually due to preorder system of Previews), and retailers get almost $2 for every book they sell, but not everything they buy sells so they get stuck with all the unsold books, not Diamond or Marvel. So it's really Diamond who is making out the best here-not Marvel, not the retailers, and not the end customers. Now if costs go up, and Marvel needs to make 25 cents more per copy, cover price has to go up a dollar to achieve that because Diamond has to get their cut and the retailers have to have some room to make a profit as well. It's not as simple as cutting cover price to the end customer if Marvel wants to lower prices, the price has to work for everyone at every level of distribution-when comics were on newsstands they sometimes didn't get put out to take up shelf space because they weren't priced high enough to make it worth the seller's while. Lower the cover price to the point where it's not profitable for Diamond or the retailer sot sell them, and they won't carry the books. -M It's not simply a cost of production increase though. Marvel used to underprice the indies by an easy 50-60%. Now their lower priced titles are priced the same, with their higher priced titles 20% more. Their cover prices have not been at the same pace as some other publishers. Not saying I agree with Marvel's pricing, bit do other publishers include a free digital copy of the books with their product? DC charges an extra $1 when they add a digital copy to the combo packs and if you want a digital copy (in addition to print) for other publishers you have to pay full cover price again. May not be worth it to some, but it is added value to the product you aren't getting from other publishers. -M
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 17:17:48 GMT -5
It's not simply a cost of production increase though. Marvel used to underprice the indies by an easy 50-60%. Now their lower priced titles are priced the same, with their higher priced titles 20% more. Their cover prices have not been at the same pace as some other publishers. Not saying I agree with Marvel's pricing, bit do other publishers include a free digital copy of the books with their product? DC charges an extra $1 when they add a digital copy to the combo packs and if you want a digital copy (in addition to print) for other publishers you have to pay full cover price again. May not be worth it to some, but it is added value to the product you aren't getting from other publishers. -M How many readers would rather save a dollar than be forced to pay for an extra copy of the comic they already own? How much extra does it actually cost Marvel to add that little code to the comic? How many of those codes actually get redeemed at all? And those that do, how many by the actual person who bought the book? It's popular to sell/trade/give codes away online, because nobody wants them. This is a ploy to justify them jacking up their costs out of pace with the competition.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 17:20:28 GMT -5
Does this mean the variant marketing ploy works?
Companies can either (a) get their own exclusive variant if they order at least 3000 copies or (b) order between 10-300 copies of regular copies to get a variant cover.
As a collector, some variant covers do have an appeal to them which is why I have multiple copies of certain books.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 17:56:14 GMT -5
Not saying I agree with Marvel's pricing, bit do other publishers include a free digital copy of the books with their product? DC charges an extra $1 when they add a digital copy to the combo packs and if you want a digital copy (in addition to print) for other publishers you have to pay full cover price again. May not be worth it to some, but it is added value to the product you aren't getting from other publishers. -M How many readers would rather save a dollar than be forced to pay for an extra copy of the comic they already own? How much extra does it actually cost Marvel to add that little code to the comic? How many of those codes actually get redeemed at all? And those that do, how many by the actual person who bought the book? It's popular to sell/trade/give codes away online, because nobody wants them. This is a ploy to justify them jacking up their costs out of pace with the competition. It's standard practice now in the entertainment industry-movies, CDs etc. all are sold for higher sticker price with digital codes. And you would be surprised at how many people either use the codes or trade them for something else, which is added value to the product. And nobody is ever forced to pay a price for a luxury item. You choose to buy it at the price it is offered, find a better deal, or do without. It's not a necessity if you can't get your comic, you will survive, so nothing forces you to spend the money on it. And if the competition charges as much or more for the same codes when you get then from them, how is Marvel jacking up the prices out of pace with the competition. DCs $3.99 books are $4.99 with the code and their $2.99 books are $3.99 with the code, when they offer combo packs (they do it only for a small number of books. Is 2-6 more story pages and ads worth the extra $1 DC charges when they charge $3.99, can you trade those 2-6 pages for a whole other comic story the way you can with digital codes? What's more value to the consumer for $3.99 20 pages plus code or 22-26 ages no code. Or if you are buying IDW, Dynamite, BOOM! or other publishers $3.99 for just 20 pages no code no extra pages. So again how is Marvel prices out of pace with their competition? The only one who offers a better price is Image, and that is on a case by case basis depending how the owner-creator wants to price the book, not determined by Image itself. I am not happy with the pricing of comics, I pretty much stopped buying new comics 6-7 months ago because I determined it wasn't worth the cost for me, but just because I don't like the result, I know the economics behind it and not liking it doesn't entitle me to ignore the economic realities of the print publishing and non-digital sales of entertainment media that exist today. If wishes were trees I'd live in a forest, but wishful thinking here only sets unrealistic expectations of what the reality of the market forces require. Don't like the prices, don't pay them and don't buy the products. They are luxuries. You can do without them. Or wait to see if they get remaindered to a bargain bin or hit the secondary market at a better price. Marvel (or DC, or whatever) is not going to sell their product at a loss or for less than they can-they have shareholders to answer to, and all their partners need to make revenue as well. If the market will bear the price, well that becomes the price. Find a way to break Diamond's monopoly and maybe the market will correct itself, but until then luxury goods will continue to cost what they cost in this industry as long as people pay for it. And if you want to talk about unrealistic mark up, let's talk those "deluxe" hardcovers and their msrp....all the creative costs for that material was paid for by the floppies and the softcover trade releases, the hc deluxe price tag is well beyond the production cost of the actual item so it's all pure profit and getting as much from the customer as possible. -M
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 21:04:09 GMT -5
The difference is DVD's cost less than they did ten years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 22:17:37 GMT -5
The difference is DVD's cost less than they did ten years ago. Not new releases that come with the digital code and Blue/Ray DVD combos etc. Older product sure, but new releases are still at premium prices, especially if they are coming with bonus copies in other formats (like digital). Those are still upwards of $20 when released. And those $5 DVDs still are priced about $4.50 more than what it costs to make them since all the creative costs for the older releases were long paid for so it's the price of the disk, the packaging and the machine to imprint it and then ship it as far as production costs are. -M
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 0:43:55 GMT -5
The difference is DVD's cost less than they did ten years ago. Not new releases that come with the digital code and Blue/Ray DVD combos etc. Older product sure, but new releases are still at premium prices, especially if they are coming with bonus copies in other formats (like digital). Those are still upwards of $20 when released. And those $5 DVDs still are priced about $4.50 more than what it costs to make them since all the creative costs for the older releases were long paid for so it's the price of the disk, the packaging and the machine to imprint it and then ship it as far as production costs are. -M Blu Ray is a new product. There are new release DVD's. And not a single DVD on the rack is what I had to pay for my first several in 1997 from Suncoast. I remember several of them costing me $40-$60. Same with Blu Ray if I remember correctly, although I never bought one.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 1:49:18 GMT -5
List price for Captain America: The Winter Soldier (a newish release) DVD only is $29.99. Combo packs are more. 1997 is not 10 years ago, it's almost 20, and DVD were new to the market then, VHS used to cost upwards of $90 plus when they were first introduced as well because it was before the technology was adapted on a wide enough scale to make it cost effective to produce products for mass market and keep them affordable. Price decrease because of adoption of new technology has nothing to do with cost vs. inflation rates. It's a whole new variable that changes the equation. But if you look at the price of DVD players themselves from 1997 to 2003 as shown in this chart... you will see they declined at the same rate as constant dollars, meaning the prices remained consistent with the cost of production as the product became more readily available and sold in greater numbers. DVD prices themselves followed the same curve. At some point they will reach plateau and then dive as new technology (in this case Blue Ray) replaces them and the process starts all over again with high prices for the new tech and media in the new format at first dwindling down at a rate that is constant with the adoption of the new technology. Sticker price vs. inflation doesn't really enter into these equations because the new tech is introduced and goes obsolete and is replace which does more to define the market prices than inflation factors long term. It's why tech companies and products (like phones, tablets, computers) are constantly being upgraded to keep prices for new products form decreasing to the plateau point because of market saturation. New DVD prices now are actually higher vis-vis-production costs than they were 10 years ago because they are the secondary format now not the primary (Blue-Ray is) and are not produced on as large a scale as they were. Blue Ray is already being replaced by streaming in many cases, which has fueled the price drop on blue rays. There is no equivalent new tech introduced to replace comics to fuel that kind of price drop, mostly because Diamond monopolizes distribution of the print product new releases and digital is being price controlled to match print prices for new releases so as not to undercut those print sales. -M
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 2:42:51 GMT -5
That's what I'm saying. The Blu-ray/dvd/digital combo packs cost roughly what a plain Blu ray cost five years ago. They're not trying to milk you for more money, they're trying to provide more value while sustaining a profitable price point. Kind of how pretty soon all TV's will be 4k smart TV's. But a 50" will still only be $500.
This isn't comparable to Marvel Comics, which are increasing in price at a faster pace than other publishers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 12:59:53 GMT -5
That's what I'm saying. The Blu-ray/dvd/digital combo packs cost roughly what a plain Blu ray cost five years ago. They're not trying to milk you for more money, they're trying to provide more value while sustaining a profitable price point. Kind of how pretty soon all TV's will be 4k smart TV's. But a 50" will still only be $500. This isn't comparable to Marvel Comics, which are increasing in price at a faster pace than other publishers. Except when you add in the additional stuff Marvel is adding (i.e. the digital code) and compare their prices to other publishers when they add it in or if you buy it separately, Marvel is increasing at the same rate as other publishers. When you compare Marvel prices to other publishers where the amount of content is equal, they are in line with each other. -M
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 13:14:08 GMT -5
That's what I'm saying. The Blu-ray/dvd/digital combo packs cost roughly what a plain Blu ray cost five years ago. They're not trying to milk you for more money, they're trying to provide more value while sustaining a profitable price point. Kind of how pretty soon all TV's will be 4k smart TV's. But a 50" will still only be $500. This isn't comparable to Marvel Comics, which are increasing in price at a faster pace than other publishers. Except when you add in the additional stuff Marvel is adding (i.e. the digital code) and compare their prices to other publishers when they add it in or if you buy it separately, Marvel is increasing at the same rate as other publishers. When you compare Marvel prices to other publishers where the amount of content is equal, they are in line with each other. -M No, Marvel is not increasing at the same rate as other publishers. Dark Horse's very first comic had a $1.50 cover price in 1986. At that time a Marvel comic would have been half as much, 75 cents. Today a Dark Horse comic is $3.50, an increase of 133%. A Marvel comic is $3.99, or an increase of 420%.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 13:41:49 GMT -5
And Dark Horse was using a higher quality paper and cover stock than Marvel at the time, so production costs were more. Now that all the publishers are using white stock not newsprint, they are charging the same. Dark Horse prices then are apples to Marvel's oranges at the time. When you look at the Epic books from Marvel that used the same kind of paper stock and cover stock that Dark Horse used, lo and behold it cost the same as a Dark Horse book at the time. Apples to apples. So when you buy a comparable product from Marvel and any other publisher, you are paying the same for the product. You paint Marvel as the bad guy because you want Marvel to be the bad guy, but the actual facts and evidence show a different story.
-M
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 14:06:39 GMT -5
It's still not comparable either though. Indies regularly have a higher page count and little to no ads. And I'm having trouble finding an Epic title from 1986 for $1.50. Groo was 75 cents. Elfquest was 75 cents.Also, the few Marvel comics I've bought in the past decade (The Noir stuff) felt like it was printed on shopping bags. Not equal quality materials to the indie floppies I currently buy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 14:48:57 GMT -5
It's still not comparable either though. Indies regularly have a higher page count and little to no ads. And I'm having trouble finding an Epic title from 1986 for $1.50. Groo was 75 cents. Elfquest was 75 cents.Also, the few Marvel comics I've bought in the past decade (The Noir stuff) felt like it was printed on shopping bags. Not equal quality materials to the indie floppies I currently buy. Groo and Elfquest were printed on the cheaper paper. Marvel cover dated January 1986 Dr. Who #16 on mando paper (better paper stock, what indies used) cover price $1.50 Moonshadow #6 Epic, better paper, cover price $1.50 The One #4 Epic, better paper cover price $1.50 Six from Sirius II #2 Epic, better paper $1.50 Sword of the Swashbucklers #5 Epic, better paper, cover price $1.50 and these Epic books had higher page counts and fewer ads as well, it was a comparable product to the indies of the time. one stop shopping from Mike's Newsstand for books cover dated Jan 1086, if you are having trouble finding books priced $1.50 from Marvel from that time, you either aren't trying or aren't looking in the places where the info is available. -M
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 16:20:56 GMT -5
How many Marvel books came out in 86? You've found five with a $1.50 cover price.
And that does not explain why Marvel costs more today, without offering better materials, higher page counts, or fewer ads.
Also, the $3.99 comics aren't really comparable to the few higher priced Marvel comics of 1986. The $4.99 ones are.
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