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Post by zaku on Jan 15, 2024 12:49:56 GMT -5
This is a behind-the-scenes question about the post-Crisis Legion and Superboy. It is clear about what happened. The post-COIE Superman no longer had a career as Superboy, who in theory could no longer be the inspiration for the Legion. This led to all sorts of problems with continuity and the creation of the Pocket Universe. What happened on an editorial level we pretty much only have what Byrne says: he warned everyone involved with the Legion that Superboy would no longer exist and that this would probably lead to problems. He was told not to worry and that they would take care of it. But months later they called him in desperation basically saying that when he said Superboy would no longer exist they didn't really understand what that meant. Now they realized it, they didn't know what to do and only he (Byrne) could save them!!! So he had to invent something (the Pocket Universe). Now, obviously I don't want to call John Byrne a liar, but he probably embellished the story a little. Because in it everyone is naive and only he truly understands the consequences of what is happening, and only he can save DC continuity. So I tried to figure it out a bit using the release dates of some comics. Man Of Steel #1 (first apparition of post-Crisis Superman): July 10, 1986. Now, when in the Legion "universe" do the characters realize that the history is not as they remember it? I did a bit of research and the first time it happens in this comic (which I've honestly never heard of).  (Cosmic Boy #1) This was on sale on September 25, 1986 (so little more than two months after Man Of Steel). But as you can see, it's a Legends tie-in. The story in this issue is linked to Legends #1 where Cosmic Boy appears. It was on sale August 28, 1986 (a little more than a month after Man of Steel #1). The first "proper" apparition of the Pocket Universe was in Action Comics #591, which was on sale May 26, 1987 (and was actually on sale "months" after Man Of Steel). Practically as you can see from the dates, they were working to fix the continuity (I don't want to talk now about how effective they were) practically already during Man Of Steel, but according to Byrne the Pocket Universe was a rush job that he managed to come up with at the last minute months after the damage. Now, does anyone have any information on what happened from sources other than Byrne himself..? |
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Post by driver1980 on Jan 15, 2024 12:56:44 GMT -5
I am sure someone here will answer, but, if I’m honest, I believe very little of what Byrne says. Yes, I’m making a judgement, but there have been a few things he has said which have been contradicted by others who I (subjectively) feel are more credible. I won’t get into specific issues, but I am thinking about many things from his time with various publishers. At the least, I believe he embellishes things.
He’s all over the place with various things. And it isn’t just me taking one person’s view over another’s; some people have contradicted what he has said, and the evidence, including in your post, shows the contradiction.
Reminds me a bit of the person in a bar who tells you all sorts of fantastical things (to try and be an entertainer) when the reality is much more mundane.
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Post by driver1980 on Jan 16, 2024 8:27:18 GMT -5
Have the Atlanteans and Asgardians ever had any interactions (diplomatic relations, conflicts, etc)?
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Post by Dizzy D on Jan 16, 2024 8:35:22 GMT -5
Have the Atlanteans and Asgardians ever had any interactions (diplomatic relations, conflicts, etc)? At Marvel? Don't remember anything. All conflicts between Thor and Namor seem to have been personal (Thor/Namor, Avengers/Defenders) or U.S. based (Thor as Avenger vs. Atlantis invasion). You'd kinda expect there has to be some relationship with Atlantis being related to the Greek Gods and those definitely had extensive relationship with Asgard. |
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Post by driver1980 on Jan 16, 2024 8:59:23 GMT -5
Have the Atlanteans and Asgardians ever had any interactions (diplomatic relations, conflicts, etc)? At Marvel? Don't remember anything. All conflicts between Thor and Namor seem to have been personal (Thor/Namor, Avengers/Defenders) or U.S. based (Thor as Avenger vs. Atlantis invasion). You'd kinda expect there has to be some relationship with Atlantis being related to the Greek Gods and those definitely had extensive relationship with Asgard. I was thinking about how Marvel still probably has a lot of never-before-seen battles/encounters, but I guess doing another X-Men crossover, or revisiting Secret Wars, is more of a priority. I mean, I can’t say certain encounters have never happened, but have the FF ever battled Juggernaut? Has Wolverine ever taken on Scorpion? What about Iron Man vs Abomination? Or Atlanteans vs Asgardians? It seems there’s so much unexplored territory in Marvel. I am not saying that we have something akin to “Acts of Vengeance” every month (it’d feel less special), but it feels like there isn’t as much “cross-pollination” now, probably because everything is tied up in an arc. What chance has Wolverine of meeting Doctor Octopus, or Captain America battling Sandman, when all eyes and attention is on “War of the Realms Secret Wars III vs Deadpool”? |
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Post by rberman on Jan 16, 2024 16:48:01 GMT -5
This is a behind-the-scenes question about the post-Crisis Legion and Superboy. It is clear about what happened. The post-COIE Superman no longer had a career as Superboy, who in theory could no longer be the inspiration for the Legion. This led to all sorts of problems with continuity and the creation of the Pocket Universe. What happened on an editorial level we pretty much only have what Byrne says: he warned everyone involved with the Legion that Superboy would no longer exist and that this would probably lead to problems. He was told not to worry and that they would take care of it. But months later they called him in desperation basically saying that when he said Superboy would no longer exist they didn't really understand what that meant. Now they realized it, they didn't know what to do and only he (Byrne) could save them!!! So he had to invent something (the Pocket Universe). Why not just say that the Legion was inspired by Superman? Or by superheroes in general? Kids can be inspired by grown ups. Mention the Teen Titans in the process if you have to namecheck younger heroes. |
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Post by zaku on Jan 16, 2024 17:26:00 GMT -5
This is a behind-the-scenes question about the post-Crisis Legion and Superboy. It is clear about what happened. The post-COIE Superman no longer had a career as Superboy, who in theory could no longer be the inspiration for the Legion. This led to all sorts of problems with continuity and the creation of the Pocket Universe. What happened on an editorial level we pretty much only have what Byrne says: he warned everyone involved with the Legion that Superboy would no longer exist and that this would probably lead to problems. He was told not to worry and that they would take care of it. But months later they called him in desperation basically saying that when he said Superboy would no longer exist they didn't really understand what that meant. Now they realized it, they didn't know what to do and only he (Byrne) could save them!!! So he had to invent something (the Pocket Universe). Why not just say that the Legion was inspired by Superman? Or by superheroes in general? Kids can be inspired by grown ups. Mention the Teen Titans in the process if you have to namecheck younger heroes. If I remember correctly, this was exactly the idea about post Zero-hour Legion: they were inspired by the 20th century heroes. But pre-Coie, LSH was one of the few successful DC comics, so they didn't want to reboot it or reconnect to much of its history. |
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 17, 2024 8:59:32 GMT -5
Icct made a joke about "no Stan bashing" in the Zoom meetings. And I get that we have more fun things to discuss.
But would it be worthwhile to have a thread about the controversies surrounding Stan's creator claims? Especially in light of all the recent scholarship in comics' circles. Or is it just too contentious a subject for our congenial board?
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Post by driver1980 on Jan 17, 2024 9:07:38 GMT -5
Icct made a joke about "no Stan bashing" in the Zoom meetings. And I get that we have more fun things to discuss. But would it be worthwhile to have a thread about the controversies surrounding Stan's creator claims? Especially in light of all the recent scholarship in comics' circles. Or is it just too contentious a subject for our congenial board? I feel there’s a risk that that particular topic could be contentious, but that concern of mine is outweighed by the fact that such a thread probably should exist here, and I trust in people’s maturity over time. |
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Post by MDG on Jan 17, 2024 12:17:17 GMT -5
Icct made a joke about "no Stan bashing" in the Zoom meetings. And I get that we have more fun things to discuss. But would it be worthwhile to have a thread about the controversies surrounding Stan's creator claims? Especially in light of all the recent scholarship in comics' circles. Or is it just too contentious a subject for our congenial board? I feel there’s a risk that that particular topic could be contentious, but that concern of mine is outweighed by the fact that such a thread probably should exist here, and I trust in people’s maturity over time. I agree, and would love to see it, but I think the mods may have to keep a tight leash on it. I've seen more than one FB group go off the rails from this topic.
On the other hand, I know of another group pretty much devoted to Stan-bashing to the point even I feel bad for the guy!
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Jan 17, 2024 12:22:58 GMT -5
I feel there’s a risk that that particular topic could be contentious, but that concern of mine is outweighed by the fact that such a thread probably should exist here, and I trust in people’s maturity over time. I agree, and would love to see it, but I think the mods may have to keep a tight leash on it. I've seen more than one FB group go off the rails from this topic. On the other hand, I know of another group pretty much devoted to Stan-bashing to the point even I feel bad for the guy!
I would feel truly sorry if this community wasn't capable of having that kind of a conversation, which is so integral to what this community is all about. I absolutely see the potential risks, but if we truly are the friendly and respectful community we claim to be, I have to believe we can rise to the occasion. |
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Post by driver1980 on Jan 17, 2024 17:22:57 GMT -5
Regarding Twitter (no, I will not call it X), are there any accounts that highlight and cover comic stores and/or the business of comic stores?
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Post by zaku on Jan 18, 2024 2:05:48 GMT -5
This is a behind-the-scenes question about the post-Crisis Legion and Superboy. It is clear about what happened. The post-COIE Superman no longer had a career as Superboy, who in theory could no longer be the inspiration for the Legion. This led to all sorts of problems with continuity and the creation of the Pocket Universe. What happened on an editorial level we pretty much only have what Byrne says: he warned everyone involved with the Legion that Superboy would no longer exist and that this would probably lead to problems. He was told not to worry and that they would take care of it. But months later they called him in desperation basically saying that when he said Superboy would no longer exist they didn't really understand what that meant. Now they realized it, they didn't know what to do and only he (Byrne) could save them!!! So he had to invent something (the Pocket Universe). Why not just say that the Legion was inspired by Superman? Or by superheroes in general? Kids can be inspired by grown ups. Mention the Teen Titans in the process if you have to namecheck younger heroes.  |
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Post by MWGallaher on Jan 18, 2024 15:32:37 GMT -5
Regarding Twitter (no, I will not call it X), are there any accounts that highlight and cover comic stores and/or the business of comic stores? I fully expect that very soon typing "twitter.com" in your browser will lead you to an error page. Musk will sacrifice the redirect traffic just to force users into typing his rebranded site name. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 18, 2024 15:43:35 GMT -5
I agree, and would love to see it, but I think the mods may have to keep a tight leash on it. I've seen more than one FB group go off the rails from this topic. On the other hand, I know of another group pretty much devoted to Stan-bashing to the point even I feel bad for the guy!
I would feel truly sorry if this community wasn't capable of having that kind of a conversation, which is so integral to what this community is all about. I absolutely see the potential risks, but if we truly are the friendly and respectful community we claim to be, I have to believe we can rise to the occasion. The strength of this community is that we are mature enough to know when any topic is becoming too volatile and the mods can nudge us along to a more peaceful resolutions. It all depends on the personalities but we have enough problems with a world that's degenerated to plain tribalism. I'd like to think that the regulars that frequent the zoom meetings care enough to preserve relationships rather than a win an argument. |
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