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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 1, 2024 8:26:24 GMT -5
That interview is pretty awful!
It's amazing that Groth can look down on BWS's involvement with Valiant and simultaneously praise Storyteller, considering that the artist was doing pretty much the same thing in both places. A bad case of snobism on Groth's part? (Why, I nevah!) Then he lambastes artists who sign a "Faustian contract" and do super-hero stuff, while he himself publishes porn. Look not at the speck that's in your brother's eye...
Groth then goes on to call John Buscema a hack (not the first time that happened in the pages of TCJ) for doing exactly what he was hired to: draw beautiful comic-book pages, on time, month after month. I don't call that being a hack, I call that being a professional.
On Kirby, I agree that BWS is pretty flattering: his only reservation is about the man's scripts. The analogy with Picasso is spot on; the Catalan painter really knew his anatomy (the drawings and paintings he did at 13 are impressive), and when he played loose with it, it was purposefully. It was also the case with the King.
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Post by kirby101 on Feb 1, 2024 11:29:50 GMT -5
Man does BWS say some unflattering things about other artists in that CBJ interview. I actually have no idea how BWS can be so judgmental of other comic book artists. He didn't insult Kirby, but I side with George on this one. You side with George even though you admit BWS didn't say anything bad about Kirby? Which is the only point of contention. Wha???
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Post by kirby101 on Feb 1, 2024 11:34:09 GMT -5
He was saying that at the peak of his powers he couldn’t draw limbs. Not sure if he was implying that, but Kirby most assuredly needed extremely talented inkers who I will forever say played a major role in Kirby's best work at Marvel (and the best work of his career, IMO). with Shores, Giacoia and Sinnott being absolutely critical in giving Kirby's work a stronger appeal. Even as Kriby returned to Marvel in the 70's, it took another master artist's inking (Romita) to make the more robotic, exaggerated layouts visually palatable & dynamic--as seen on the cover of The Invaders #3 (11/1975) and most notably, Captain America #193's cover ( The Madbomb - 1/1976), so at key points in Kirby's career, he did need others to bring out (and sometimes alter / correct) what is considered his best work. Every artists looks better with a good inker. And a bad inker can make any artist look worst. But Kirby didn't need a good inker to improve his work. This is obvious if you look at his rare self inked work or finished pencils.
Kirby inked this poster of Dr Doom, and it is as striking as anything inked by those inkers you say he needed.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 1, 2024 12:26:18 GMT -5
The Complete Far Side: is there more than one version? I've seen a 3-volume and a 2-volume set, are there others and is there much difference between them? It was released as a two-volume, hardcover slipcase edition, initially; then, a three-volume, slipcase, paperback edition, later. The increase in the number of volumes for the paperback edition was to make them more stable, as the glue binding of a paperback gets pretty unstable at that kind of size (and the volumes were big, like the Calvin & Hobbes 3-volume set) As it was, the hardcover editions suffered from binding problems. The individual books were big and weighty and the binding wasn't as solid as older generation books. The publishers went cheap on book bindings, especially after the 90s and with the outsourcing of printing to places like China. There was a second edition of Maurice Horn's The World Encyclopedia of Comics, released in the late 90s (I think...might have been the beginning of the millennium), which had updated entries and additional entries for newer strips, revised from the edition released in the early 70s (when the Neal Adams X-Men stories were recent). The thing was a monster. I later got my hands on a set of an edition published for libraries, in multiple volumes, splitting up the alphabet, like a regular encyclopedia set. It was much handier and great for pulling out for quick reference, compared with the single volume. Fewer hernias, too. The real difference between the two editions, aside from the additional material was that the original had contributors from around the world, while this edition seemed to be all Horn, in terms of the writing. In several places, it was clear he had never read the comics in question and in others, there are more critical opinions. The original edition was generally positive to neutral about entries, with only the entry for Philippe Druillet sounding extremely negative, basically saying he was overrated. It sounded like there was a personal issue between Horn and the artist (probably a woman, since they are French, but I wouldn't rule out money). I wish I had hung onto it, but I downsized my library in my last move and that set, and other comic book reference books, were pretty bulky.....and I had pretty much memorized the info in them, from successive readings. At one point, I had quite a comic book reference library, with Ron Goulart's histories, Will Jacobs & Gerard Jones The Comic Book Heroes in two editions, the Horn encyclopedia in two editions, a couple of other books edited by Horn, Jeff Rovin's encyclopedias of super herooes and other related topics, the Mike Benton reference books, Stan's Fireside collections, the 30s/40s to the 70s DC books, the DC encyclopedias from Michael Fleischer, Dick Lupoff & Don Thompson's two books, Jules Feiffer's Great Comic Book Heroes, a reprint of Seduction of the Innocent, a couple of the DK books, a couple from CBG, the Fantagraphics Bill Maudlin Willie & Joe set, the Les Daniels books, Peter Sanderson's Marvel Book, a couple of books with creator bios, The Comic Book Rebels, the Smithsonian books on comic books and the comic strips volume, Jerry Robinson's book, the Penguin history of comics, the superhero book that came in a fat paperback, in the 90s, Fred Schott's manga history/survey and a few others I am forgetting. 20 years as a bookseller and a previous decade or so of buying any book I found about comic books and their history.
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Post by tarkintino on Feb 1, 2024 12:39:09 GMT -5
Not sure if he was implying that, but Kirby most assuredly needed extremely talented inkers who I will forever say played a major role in Kirby's best work at Marvel (and the best work of his career, IMO). with Shores, Giacoia and Sinnott being absolutely critical in giving Kirby's work a stronger appeal. Even as Kriby returned to Marvel in the 70's, it took another master artist's inking (Romita) to make the more robotic, exaggerated layouts visually palatable & dynamic--as seen on the cover of The Invaders #3 (11/1975) and most notably, Captain America #193's cover ( The Madbomb - 1/1976), so at key points in Kirby's career, he did need others to bring out (and sometimes alter / correct) what is considered his best work. Every artists looks better with a good inker. And a bad inker can make any artist look worst. But Kirby didn't need a good inker to improve his work. This is obvious if you look at his rare self inked work or finished pencils.
Kirby inked this poster of Dr Doom, and it is as striking as anything inked by those inkers you say he needed.
I seriously disbelieve there's a majority of comic readers who would doubt how much Kirby's work benefited from, or was improved by Shores, Sinnott and Giacoia during what was--in no coincidence--Kirby's greatest period as a comic book artist. If his work had the same or surpassed the visual impact of the period in question when he returned to DC, or created for Pacific, one could suggest he delivered a near-finished product in the pencil stage, but the visual record--those issues of Tales of Suspense, Captain America and The Fantastic Four--almost universally recognized as Kirby's best in the medium, occurred when those gifted talents did far more than merely trace his work (like another inker did to his work), but added a dynamic life and texture to his work that played an undeniable role in making his work appeal in the way it was experienced.
When he returned to Marvel, the level of his work declined; some might claim he was phoning it in, but the contrast between any of his Romita-inked covers to that without it (e.g., his return stint on interiors for Captain America and the Falcon) was glaring (with Giacoia's inks either minimal, or no longer having the transformative power it once had), with the Romita-embellished covers being a standout as opposed to the blocky, robotic work of his typical work in the period.
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Post by berkley on Feb 1, 2024 12:39:30 GMT -5
Thanks to Calidore and Codystarbuck for the Far Side info. I'll probably go with the 3-volume set as it's cheaper and there doesn't seem to be anything superior about the 2-volume unless one has a preference for hardcovers.
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Post by berkley on Feb 1, 2024 12:44:25 GMT -5
On BWS, I don't have a problem with anything he says about the Image guys since I more or less agree with it, from the samples I've seen. He's entitled to his opinion on the artistic merits of his colleagues' work and as an accomplished artist himself, that opinion is an informed one - though that doesn't mean anyone has to agree with it.
On Buscema, I think he acknowledges his ability but feels he spent his career drawing stuff he didn't particularly care for: IOW it was a business career to him, not an artistic calling. I don't think it was quite that simple but it's a defensible POV.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 1, 2024 12:45:35 GMT -5
That interview is pretty awful! It's amazing that Groth can look down on BWS's involvement with Valiant and simultaneously praise Storyteller, considering that the artist was doing pretty much the same thing in both places. A bad case of snobism on Groth's part? ( Why, I nevah!) Then he lambastes artists who sign a "Faustian contract" and do super-hero stuff, while he himself publishes porn. Look not at the speck that's in your brother's eye... Groth then goes on to call John Buscema a hack (not the first time that happened in the pages of TCJ) for doing exactly what he was hired to: draw beautiful comic-book pages, on time, month after month. I don't call that being a hack, I call that being a professional. On Kirby, I agree that BWS is pretty flattering: his only reservation is about the man's scripts. The analogy with Picasso is spot on; the Catalan painter really knew his anatomy (the drawings and paintings he did at 13 are impressive), and when he played loose with it, it was purposefully. It was also the case with the King. Groth had his usual agenda and I agree he was always a hypocrite when he would slag off DC for publishing superheroes while giving left handed compliments to Sandman or admit that Howard Cruse's Stuck Rubber Baby was a great book and published by DC, while Love & Rockets and others were being funded by "porn comics." However, those involved in those comics produced them under better terms, so there is that, even if it was for a lesser page rate. Also, a large chunk of what Eros put out were European erotica, with some notable creators, and not just cheap junk with explicit sex. They also reprinted stuff like Eric Stanton and Wally Wood's adult comics and Frank Thorne's stuff. There were other publishers who were doing the cheaper and tawdrier stuff; so, even in their "porn," Fantagraphics had some standards. Not a lot of them, but some. There is a certain snobbery within fandom, too, about indie comics and vice versa, and also about adult comics with sexual content, with the label "porn" being thrown about, regardless of the context of the sex scenes in the work. To me, that is no different than Groth attacking DC and Marvel for existing and publishing superheroes, while still putting out some more mature material, which Groth will only acknowledge with left-handed compliments, unless he is interviewing someone like Neil Gaiman...in which case he is full of praise (and full of it, to be sure). Groth is at least consistent with his stance on work-for-hire contracts and, to his point, there is a Faustian bargain to work for DC and Marvel and get a better page rate, since you cede any rights to the material. Book publishing, for the most part, doesn't operate that way (except in licensed works and publisher owned series; but, even them the terms are better, for royalties) and European and British comics do not (hence Marvel's problems with reprinting Alan Moore material from Marvel UK, without his consent). I can at least see where Groth is coming from, in guys like Buscema who stay working under those conditions, rather than sratch the itch to create and own their own material, like Kirby or Starlin or the Image guys. I don't appreciate him using the term "hack," which signifies more some one who slops it out for a regular paycheck and that isn't Buscema. Unlike Groth, though, I recognize that some guys are quite happy with steady work doing assigned titles and have no real itch to scratch...or not one within comics. Dan Spiegle drew tons of comics under work-for-hire, dabbled a tiny bit in ownership, with Crossfire (which he shared with Mark Evanier); but, his pleasure was in painting, not in creating his own comics.
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Post by driver1980 on Feb 1, 2024 12:48:11 GMT -5
When, if ever, was Doctor Doom’s face first shown?
(I realise so many questions I ask could be answered via Google, but I don’t want to kill the art of conversation; I hate how society is heading towards chatbots in banks, government departments, etc; I’d much rather ask here)
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Post by berkley on Feb 1, 2024 12:51:47 GMT -5
Every artists looks better with a good inker. And a bad inker can make any artist look worst. But Kirby didn't need a good inker to improve his work. This is obvious if you look at his rare self inked work or finished pencils.
Kirby inked this poster of Dr Doom, and it is as striking as anything inked by those inkers you say he needed. I seriously disbelieve there's a majority of comic readers who would doubt how much Kirby's work benefited from, or was improved by Shores, Sinnott and Giacoia during what was--in no coincidence--Kirby's greatest period as a comic book artist. If his work had the same or surpassed the visual impact of the period in question when he returned to DC, or created for Pacific, one could suggest he delivered a near-finished product in the pencil stage, but the visual record--those issues of Tales of Suspense, Captain America and The Fantastic Four--almost universally recognized as Kirby's best in the medium, occurred when those gifted talents did far more than merely trace his work (like another inker did to his work), but added a dynamic life and texture to his work that played an undeniable role in making his work appeal in the way it was experienced.
When he returned to Marvel, the level of his work declined; some might claim he was phoning it in, but the contrast between any of his Romita-inked covers to that without it (e.g., his return stint on interiors for Captain America and the Falcon) was glaring (with Giacoia's inks either minimal, or no longer having the transformative power it once had), with the Romita-embellished covers being a standout as opposed to the blocky, robotic work of his typical work in the period.
I think you're talking more about your own personal tastes more than about the evidence, though I acknowledge that many comics fans share that taste. But then the opinion of the majority of comics fans doesn't carry any weight of authority with me. I'll take the informed opinion of an artist of Windsor-Smith's calibre over the prejudices of superhero comics fans any day.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Feb 1, 2024 13:08:14 GMT -5
In the conversation regarding Buscema, I will never understand people in the industry and fans (not anyone here) disdain or freely using words like "hack" in regards to artists and writers that were just doing it for a job. It seems very unfair to question the quality of their work as if they have to be doing it because of an "artistic calling" for it to be quality. I mean if I didn't have to work I certainly wouldn't. But I do put my best effort and hard work into my job to earn the money that I am paid.
But then I guess this post is more for the "there I said it" thread.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 1, 2024 13:09:32 GMT -5
When, if ever, was Doctor Doom’s face first shown? (I realise so many questions I ask could be answered via Google, but I don’t want to kill the art of conversation; I hate how society is heading towards chatbots in banks, government departments, etc; I’d much rather ask here) We saw his face in FF annual #2, but that was when he was younger and still handsome as they come. His badly disfigured face... I have never seen it clearly. In Fantastic Four #200, Doom is unmasked in a room full of mirrors, and we get to see a blurred (or hatched) version of it: he's still got two eyes, a nose, a mouth that's normal, so his injuries are probably only skin-deep. In FF #278, "True Lies", we see him after his original lab accident; he only had a big scar across a cheek, but was in no way horrible to look at. His ego wouldn't stand anything less than perfection, though, and so he considered himself disfigured; later in the same story, he has his still-hot newly forged mask laid straight on his features, causing them to go pshhhhhhhh. (This last bit reflects his origin as told in FF#2, although then the mask just looked painfully hot; not flesh-melting scalding.) Over the years we got glimpses of his face, and the flesh around his eyes seem very bumpy and burned... hamburger-like, as is the case for some patients being treated for skin cancer. If we were ever treated to a clear view of his ruined features, I do not know.
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 1, 2024 13:16:36 GMT -5
When he returned to Marvel, the level of his work declined; some might claim he was phoning it in, but the contrast between any of his Romita-inked covers to that without it (e.g., his return stint on interiors for Captain America and the Falcon) was glaring (with Giacoia's inks either minimal, or no longer having the transformative power it once had), with the Romita-embellished covers being a standout as opposed to the blocky, robotic work of his typical work in the period.
It was right around the time he returned to Marvel that, if I'm remembering correctly, Kirby began to experience vision problems. By the time he was doing Captain Victory and Silver Star for Pacific, he was on the verge of going blind in one eye and by the time he was doing Super Powers at DC, the sight in that eye was completely gone. Jack never lost his imagination or his enthusiasm for storytelling but his actual penciling did suffer as a result of his deteriorating eyesight.
Cei-U! Even half-blind, he was still King Kirby!
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Post by berkley on Feb 1, 2024 13:25:46 GMT -5
I don't think it'll change anyone's mind because everyone's opinions seem so hard-set on this subject, but for readers who don't think Kirby could draw and that he needed Sinnott or Romita to make his artwork passable, I'd encourage them to look at Kirby's un-inked pencils from the '60s period.
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Post by kirby101 on Feb 1, 2024 15:07:12 GMT -5
I seriously disbelieve there's a majority of comic readers who would doubt how much Kirby's work benefited from, or was improved by Shores, Sinnott and Giacoia during what was--in no coincidence--Kirby's greatest period as a comic book artist. If his work had the same or surpassed the visual impact of the period in question when he returned to DC, or created for Pacific, one could suggest he delivered a near-finished product in the pencil stage, but the visual record--those issues of Tales of Suspense, Captain America and The Fantastic Four--almost universally recognized as Kirby's best in the medium, occurred when those gifted talents did far more than merely trace his work (like another inker did to his work), but added a dynamic life and texture to his work that played an undeniable role in making his work appeal in the way it was experienced.
When he returned to Marvel, the level of his work declined; some might claim he was phoning it in, but the contrast between any of his Romita-inked covers to that without it (e.g., his return stint on interiors for Captain America and the Falcon) was glaring (with Giacoia's inks either minimal, or no longer having the transformative power it once had), with the Romita-embellished covers being a standout as opposed to the blocky, robotic work of his typical work in the period.
I seriously disagree with all of that. His work in late Silver Age Marvel was fantastic (pun intended) And i understand that is the favorite period for the majority of fans. But his best artwork? That is just opinion, as berkley said. I know some who love his work from the 50s on books like Boys Ranch. Most criticize his Fourth World work because they don't think his dialog is up to what the stories require. That is a worthwhile discussion. But the artwork, especially when inked by Royer, is equal to anything he was doing before he left Marvel. New Gods in particular, with those two page splashes and the cosmic action was on par with his Marvel art work. I also think Kamandi and the Demon had great art.
However many recognize the FF as his best, that is about the stories and creativity, not that it so much better art than anything else he did.
When he returned to Marvel he also did the 2001 adaptation and the Surfer graphic novel. You would have to show me how those showed a decline.
I also am not a fan of any of those covers inked by Romita.I thought their two styles conflicted.
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