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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 16:43:44 GMT -5
Yeah, a large account that sells hundreds of thousands of OTHER comics can sell 25 copies of a comic, because they're a large and important account. If you're not a large and important account, Diamond will not distribute 5,999 copies of a single comic.
To think that this has nothing to do with Diamond's relationship with larger publishers in an effort to hardball smaller publishers off the newsstands to me is naive. If they needed a larger cut, they could ask for a larger cut. Maybe it results in higher cover prices, but they could have at least offered the option. They didn't. Because a hundred small publishers with five titles each being discontinued from a minimum increase means five hundred fewer options for the retailer to spend his budget on comics outside the Big Two.
It's obviously not because distributing 5,999 comics is too difficult, because they can distribute 25 comics, as long as you're one of their top accounts.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 16:57:33 GMT -5
Speaking as someone who does Diamond orders every month. 500 more options outside the big 2 means nothing if none of my customers ask for those books 3 months before they come out when I have to order them because I don't have the liquid capital to order books on spec. If I had customers asking for them I would order them. If I have a customer ask for a book Diamond doesn't carry, I'll do my best to get it for them outside of Diamond. If I can sell it, I'll get it whether Diamond carries it or not, and if I can't sell it, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference in Diamond carries it or not, I won't order it. Just because Diamond carries it doesn't mean customers want it or retailers carry it. Heck there are books by Marvel and DC we don't order because they don't sell for us. Bottom line, if it sold enough, Diamond would carry it. Yes, you take care of your best customers, but you don't leave profits on the table. I'll go out of my way to find a book for a customer with 20 books on the pull list because they represent a larger portion of my business and livelihood than a customer who pulls one book. But I won't refuse to service the customer with one book. However, if I had to pay $5 in expenses for each customer and he was only buying a $3 book, I would set a minimum purchase threshold to make sure I wasn't losing money by servicing that customer. It's the reason why a lot of smaller businesses have minimum purchase prices on credit card sales.The purchase has to be more than their transaction fees for taking the card. They won't lose money on a transaction. Diamond is not going to take an account where they lose money. Their bean counters have set that profit threshold at 6000 units. Yes the threshold changed a few years back, because rising prices made the cost of doing business go up, so the level of profitability changed. That is the economic reality of things. The cost of doing business continues to rise and if your sales don't keep up with the rising cots, you don't do business any more.
-M
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 17:15:53 GMT -5
But what if they did ask?
Look at it like this, in the 1980's-1990's when the average Marvel comic was selling six figures and a million copies wasn't unheard of, distributors were still willing to ship Albedo, Love And Rockets, Cerebus, Elfquest, Grendel, Usagi Yojimbo, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Groo, and so on. None of which would exist by today's distribution minimums. None of these characters or titles had six thousand orders for their first issue that I know of. In fact, by today's distribution minimums The Walking Dead just barely made it.
What that means is by raising these minimums they are guaranteeing the next Cerebus doesn't happen, the next Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles doesn't happen. The next MAUS doesn't happen. But you know what will happen? Five more Avengers titles, ten more Wolverine titles, and an entire Spiderman universe. Eliminate half the options out there, and you have twice as much money to spend at the only two publishers that seem to matter.
If the answer was simply "The cost of business went up" then the solution could be higher cover prices for smaller run titles. Instead they eliminated smaller run titles. Unless of course you're Marvel, they will distribute whatever you print. But I find it hard to believe Diamond wouldn't make a profit distributing a print run of 2000 comics anyway. They just don't want to. And in my opinion, the reason they don't want to is because not doing so benefits the publishers they are buddied up with.
I just find it odd that in an economy where now the mainstream publishers struggle to break 60k units, the one and only distributor to the direct market RAISES their minimums.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 17:29:33 GMT -5
If they did ask, I would order it form Diamond or contact the publisher to order copies for the store. We carry books not distributed by Diamond. Most of them from local creators because we know them and help promote their stuff. But if people ask us for a book they want and we can sell it, we try to find a way to get it for them, whether Diamond carries it or not. If your retailer won't do that for you, find a better retailer.
And yes those books wouldn't make it by today's minimums, but there a re a lot fewer people buying comics overall these days so even if Diamond carried them, they might not sell. This isn't Field of Comic Dreams. If Diamond carries it it will sell to the masses is a naive point of view. Diamond has 5000ish accounts, and a 6000 unit minimum. How many is each account buying of those books? Especially if a handful of those accounts are online retailers who buy up 50-60% of the print run for their wider customer base? There are a lot of stores not carrying books that meet the minimum of 6K. SO even if Diamond carries them doesn't mean retailers will stock them and that magically new TMNT or Cerebus will happen. It's not the 80s and 90s. Business models that worked then do not work now. It is a different world. Books like that would have taken advantage of things like Kickstarter and digital sales back then, but those things weren't available. You want modern examples of small press success of books not carried by Diamond. Look at Rich Burlew's Order of the Stick. It's a webcomic. He offered trade collections he had printed and sold at cons like Gen Con and Origins and sold out of his print runs. He did more printings and this time a few online retailers bought form him and carried the books-why-because they had sold previously and there was demand for them form actual customers. He sold out again. He did a kickstarter to do new printings and more collections and raised over $1 million. All without Diamond carrying floppy versions of his comics, because there were no floppy versions. Why? Because the business model for getting comics to customers is evolving as technology evolves. You are absolutely right that a new Cerebus or TMNT won't happen by selling floppies. But it's not because Diamond isn't carrying books liek that. It's because floppies aren't the format to put new unproven material out there in any longer.
-M
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 17:39:16 GMT -5
I'm talking about comics with built in orders of five thousand units. Diamond won't stock those. They're guaranteed sold already, all you have to do is deliver them.
You're comparing Rich Burlew's Order of the Stick to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?
You say the next TMNT won't happen, but it did with Walking Dead. That series barely made it by today's standards. If they had 1500 fewer orders I could say they wouldn't have made it. The CEO's and shareholders for Marvel, DC, and the megacorporations that own them are aware of this.
And again, the whole point is that Diamond does to small comic publishers what Amazon is apparently doing to one book publisher. You think Amazon is a terrible company for removing one of several avenues for the book publisher to sell books (And they didn't even do that, you can order Harry Potter on Amazon right now) but when Diamond does the same to countless publishers (except Diamond is a much bigger player in comic book distribution than Amazon is in book distribution) your reply is "They need to adapt."
It's the same thing. You could easily say both need to adapt, and both distributors are in the right. But if one distributor is wrong, they both are.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 17:49:45 GMT -5
If moving 5000 units doesn't cover their cost of doing business why should they take that account? That publisher has no inherent right to be carried by Diamond unless they have a contract that guarantees it. And I never said Amazon was wrong and Diamond was right, I brought up Amazon when people were saying no one is as bad as Diamond and I pointed to Amazon having just as many questionable practices. The difference, Amazon and Hachette had contracts to do business that expired, and Amazon is not doing it because distributing Hachette will lose them money, but are using it as a negotiating tactic to get a better deal from Hachette, refusing to distribute books until Hachette gives them a better deal.
But I think we just need to end this. You seem to be convinced there is a nefarious agenda at work by Diamond or the big 2 to deprive people of books. Despite the fact people could still get those books with a modicum of effort by other avenues if they chose to do so. I am not going to change your mind, and I am not going to be convinced of a conspiracy at work in the distribution channels, so I think we just need to agree to disagree on the matter. TO channel Robert Anton Wilson...we are travelling through different reality tunnels right now-and well who's to say which is right-you have yours and I have mine.
-M
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ironchimp
Full Member
Simian Overlord
Posts: 456 
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Post by ironchimp on Jul 20, 2014 18:00:40 GMT -5
Look at it like this, in the 1980's-1990's when the average Marvel comic was selling six figures and a million copies wasn't unheard of, distributors were still willing to ship Albedo, Love And Rockets, Cerebus, Elfquest, Grendel, Usagi Yojimbo, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Groo, and so on. None of which would exist by today's distribution minimums. None of these characters or titles had six thousand orders for their first issue that I know of. In fact, by today's distribution minimums The Walking Dead just barely made it. i'd be very very surprised if those books weren't shifting very decent numbers (i don't know about albedo) in their runs diamond shifts stuff by 20 or more (at a wild guess?) publishers and lots of stuff in top 300 sells 6000 or under. If you want hard core indie books then you go to hardcore indie shops or mailorder. I can't see the problem. i dont go to a chain record store expecting to see an 8" lathe cut single - if i want that i go to the people who specialise in selling them |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 20, 2014 18:07:01 GMT -5
I might have misread what was written but , did I read that Diamond even controls the digital sales? I thought digital was just a photo of the original art sent electronically. Why would units sold matter in digital Sales? Forgive my ignorant questions, digital is new to me.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 20, 2014 18:08:59 GMT -5
I have (perhaps) a stupid question. Looking at the June sales numbers, 6,000 copies comes in at #263 on the list (letter 44 by Oni, to be precise, at 6,032)... If Diamond's minimum is 6,000... where'd the other almost 200 comics come from? Heck, EVERY Zenoscope title is under 6000 units sold. I know Diamond doesn't allow returns, so what's the deal? Either the 6,000 minimum order is not true, there are an absurd number of exceptions, or there's something I'm missing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 18:09:28 GMT -5
I might have misread what was written but , did I read that Diamond even controls the digital sales? I thought digital was just a photo of the original art sent electronically. Why would units sold matter in digital Sales? Forgive my ignorant questions, digital is new to me. Diamond offers a digital storefront where people can buy digital copies and I think the LCS gets the credit for the sale (and part of the proceeds). I think Comixology does something similar. Diamond does not control digital distribution. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 18:14:31 GMT -5
Despite the fact people could still get those books with a modicum of effort by other avenues if they chose to do so. Yes, like ordering directly from the publisher's site. If the publisher's site encourages traffic for books, it just might get to the quota required by Diamond. The guys behind an unknown entity called Rat Queens did their work to generate interest...they didn't just sit there expecting Diamond to lower quotas, they made the effort to meet them. And that book has since become a cult hit in its short lifespan. Our customers don't usually ask for obscure books with tiny print runs, but when one of our regulars asked about Cavewoman, we got some from one of our sources who had copies on hand at cover price. We didn't make money selling those, but this was a customer who once spent US$7,000 on 450+ comics in one day at our turf in a local convention (a dentist by profession, he can afford to) so we made the effort for him. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 18:16:31 GMT -5
I have (perhaps) a stupid question. Looking at the June sales numbers, 6,000 copies comes in at #263 on the list (letter 44 by Oni, to be precise, at 6,032)... If Diamond's minimum is 6,000... where'd the other almost 200 comics come from? Heck, EVERY Zenoscope title is under 6000 units sold. I know Diamond doesn't allow returns, so what's the deal? Either the 6,000 minimum order is not true, there are an absurd number of exceptions, or there's something I'm missing. It's 6000 units per account not per title I believe. Most small publishers that dupont2005 is talking about have only a single title or perhaps 2 that do not meet the Diamond minimum. Also, Diamond can agree to carry a publisher, sign the contracts for a set period of time and then drop them if their sales drop below the threshold either by not renewing the contract or if there is a termination at will clause in the contract. When you (i.e. a publisher) are pitching books to Diamond to see if they will carry you for distribution, you have to provide them with an expected sales estimate for the title/line. If you already have a contract with Diamond as a publisher, you probably don't need to pitch a specific title. Diamond can still make money carrying a publisher if some of the titles are under th threshold as long as the slate of books from the publishers sells well enough. Most small publishers slate of books consist of one title though, so if that one title doesn't meet the minimum, you've got nothing else to offer Diamond. -M |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 20, 2014 18:27:18 GMT -5
Ahhh, I see. So that seems a simple solution... indy guys can get together and have one account, no?
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jul 20, 2014 18:31:15 GMT -5
Yeah, a large account that sells hundreds of thousands of OTHER comics can sell 25 copies of a comic, because they're a large and important account. If you're not a large and important account, Diamond will not distribute 5,999 copies of a single comic. To think that this has nothing to do with Diamond's relationship with larger publishers in an effort to hardball smaller publishers off the newsstands to me is naive. If they needed a larger cut, they could ask for a larger cut. Maybe it results in higher cover prices, but they could have at least offered the option. They didn't. Because a hundred small publishers with five titles each being discontinued from a minimum increase means five hundred fewer options for the retailer to spend his budget on comics outside the Big Two. It's obviously not because distributing 5,999 comics is too difficult, because they can distribute 25 comics, as long as you're one of their top accounts. That's true of any business, you get certain perks for being a big customer and it has nothing to do with hard balling smaller customers and everything to do with keeping your best customers happy because they give you more sales more often. If this was a practice that only diamond did then perhaps you could make a case for your hypothesis, but it's done by just about every business from the kings of Wall Street to the Mom and Pop diner on the corner so I don't think your idea can stand on its own. As for the next Ninja Turtles not happening because of Diamond, I don't buy that one either. For one Eastman and Laird more or less self distributed, they put out an ad in the Comics Buyer’s Guide and from there individual shops and small distributors started calling in orders which they shipped themselves. Secondly, with the speculation game just starting to ramp up Eastman and Laird sold out of their original run of 3,000 and within a few weeks with more orders coming in, were printing another 6,000 copies and easily selling through those too and from there the numbers exploded so they were meeting the minimum order number making the argument of the of the order threshold moot. Is it easy? No, of course not, but it wasn't back in the 80's either; it took a lot of personal sacrifice on the parts of Eastman and Laird and a whole lot of luck and the same is true now. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 18:31:47 GMT -5
If moving 5000 units doesn't cover their cost of doing business why should they take that account? It will cover the cost of doing business if the 5000 units are priced accordingly. There is no price factor, only a unit factor. How about this, what if it actually cost money to list your comic in previews? Fifty bucks, five hundred bucks, whatever it costs to make cataloging the comic, giving it an order code, and publishing it viable. Then make Previews free, like the pennysaver. Limited to x number of issues per store based on their spending. If the cost of publishing is paid for by charging for the listing, it could work. Then customers could more easily root through it themselves, know what's available, and put in their orders. It could actually increase sales for the retailer, since he probably only has space to stock about 150 titles. The guy with nine or ten titles on his pull list might have fifteen after looking in previews. The guy with sixty might have eighty. Then Diamond can say they will distribute based on this price point per unit plan, which means if you presell x amount of issues we charge this much, if you presell many more issues, we are happy to take a smaller cut. Way back when Marvel Comics had a cover price of thirty cents some people were willing to spend four dollars on a copy of Cannon by Wally Wood. DOes a high price hurt sales? Yes. Does it mean there will be no sales? No. Diamond could still easily have minimums, but in my opinion a more reasonable minimum is half what they have now. A third would be ideal. If you paid for your Previews listing and you have two thousand preorders, you manage to print and deliver 2000 comics to Diamond distributors and the cover price is set so you, Diamond, and the retailer all make money, I don't see the problem. This is why I think they have a minimum based strictly on circulation numbers, they aren't offering indies the opportunity to charge double what a Marvel comic costs, like indies were known to do in the 1980's. They are simply making them cease to exist. And saying Kickstarter and free to read webcomics is a reasonable solution doesn't really fly to me either. Maybe that book publisher that is having problems with Amazon can just post their work on Deviantart for free and hope they generate enough of a following to Kickstart a print on demand version some day. New ideas and unproven material has no place in floppies, essentially saying they have no place in the direct market. That is incredibly sad to me to hear. I don't necessarily disagree though. People will pay more for a comic with a blank cover that they never intend on opening than they will for something that doesn't have a Marvel logo in the corner. I don't think Diamond is solely to blame, but I think this was a conscious effort on behalf of both Diamond and the publishers. |
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