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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 15, 2014 9:45:03 GMT -5
I think the problem is the same one the book business has. In order to get a store to stock your stuff, you have to offer a decent discount, and return of overstock.. most book publishers(excepting very specialized ones selling very expensive books0 give wholesalers 40-50% off (some of the mass market types go as high as 60) and return within a year. Would that work for comics?
I don't think they ever did returns tot he newstand, they did the 'rip off the cover thing'... that's a really bad system, since it allows the retailer to 'sell' returned goods at a discount, and 'return' stuff they damage.
To not offer returns is asking the retailed to assume all the risk, which isn't likely to happen for a niche product. I think they need some sort of low cost product (maybe .99 newsprint comics?) to get into Target/Walmart/Costco/etc, to get people into a mindset that it's ok to buy comics... maybe offer a free digital 6-page preview along with it.. soemthing to make it less weird and nerdy to buy a comic.. that would, hopefully, drive more people to the 'good' comic stores, which, in turn, should create more of them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 10:11:53 GMT -5
I fear comics will never be considered worth what they cost to anyone that doesn't already love comics
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Post by Randle-El on Jul 15, 2014 10:16:14 GMT -5
There has to be something more effective than comic shop distribution, but the trick is to not kill the direct market while finding that solution, at least until the alternative is enough to sustain the business Whether people like it or not, in all honesty I think that digital, bookstores/trades, and Image are the future for comics, in that those will be the growth sectors for attracting new readers. Digital and bookstores because we've established that comics shops are, on the whole, unwelcoming to new readers. Getting into any new hobby is already a little daunting, but the stereotypical attitude of LCS staff raises the barrier to entry even higher to the point where I don't know that someone not already committed to comics would think it's worth it. Bookstores/trades because new readers are being acclimated to consuming media in larger chunks than the episodic format, e.g., binge-watching entire seasons. People who are willing to follow floppies on a monthly basis are more committed fans, not new or casual readers. Image and other independent publishers because their works are self-contained in a manner more similar to fiction publishing in general, and in a manner more likely to attract readers from the film/TV adaptations. If you liked the Harry Potter movies, you can get into the books by reading book 1. If you liked Hunger Games, you can get into the books by reading book 1. If you liked Walking Dead, you can get into the comics by reading book 1 of the TPB series. If you liked the Avengers, which one do you start with? |
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Post by comicscube on Jul 15, 2014 10:16:38 GMT -5
I fear comics will never be considered worth what they cost to anyone that doesn't already love comics It's just never gonna be a mass medium again, really, I think. Think about it. At its true height (let's say before the direct market), it had the following things going for it: 1) Value for money - a crapload of stories for a cheap price 2) Lack of competition - TV didn't have a bajillion channels and seeing the shows you wanted at the time you wanted it was difficult (not impossible) to do 3) Captain Marvel Those don't exist anymore. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 10:23:27 GMT -5
Thankfully in the case of Captain Marvel
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 15, 2014 11:19:56 GMT -5
I've been convinced for years that the LCS is a deterrent to the growth of the comics industry; now, with the rise of digital, and the LCS attitude towards it, I'm certain that they're a deterrent. Since I now exclusively read collected editions and digital, the LCS means nothing to me. I haven't even been inside one since the late 90's.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 11:32:11 GMT -5
I've done just fine without one for four years
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Post by hondobrode on Jul 15, 2014 23:03:54 GMT -5
There has to be something more effective than comic shop distribution, but the trick is to not kill the direct market while finding that solution, at least until the alternative is enough to sustain the business Whether people like it or not, in all honesty I think that digital, bookstores/trades, and Image are the future for comics, in that those will be the growth sectors for attracting new readers. Digital and bookstores because we've established that comics shops are, on the whole, unwelcoming to new readers. Getting into any new hobby is already a little daunting, but the stereotypical attitude of LCS staff raises the barrier to entry even higher to the point where I don't know that someone not already committed to comics would think it's worth it. Bookstores/trades because new readers are being acclimated to consuming media in larger chunks than the episodic format, e.g., binge-watching entire seasons. People who are willing to follow floppies on a monthly basis are more committed fans, not new or casual readers. Image and other independent publishers because their works are self-contained in a manner more similar to fiction publishing in general, and in a manner more likely to attract readers from the film/TV adaptations. If you liked the Harry Potter movies, you can get into the books by reading book 1. If you liked Hunger Games, you can get into the books by reading book 1. If you liked Walking Dead, you can get into the comics by reading book 1 of the TPB series. If you liked the Avengers, which one do you start with? Amen, though new readers do come in but that jumping on point is weird. It was weird back when I picked up Fantastic Four # 172 too and being completely lost, but I figured it out even without the Internet. It was just too cool not to read and gradually the pieces fell into place.
I think it's great that someone can pull up marvel.com or dccomics.com or wikia or Wikipedia or something to help fill in the cracks.
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Post by Randle-El on Jul 16, 2014 0:24:37 GMT -5
Amen, though new readers do come in but that jumping on point is weird. It was weird back when I picked up Fantastic Four # 172 too and being completely lost, but I figured it out even without the Internet. It was just too cool not to read and gradually the pieces fell into place.
I think it's great that someone can pull up marvel.com or dccomics.com or wikia or Wikipedia or something to help fill in the cracks.
The web makes it easier to find that sort of information and get straightened out. But I would submit that that sort of effort is more typical of someone already committed to comics than a new reader. I suspect that many of these readers who are new to a franchise or a series are not necessarily new readers in the sense of being new to comics, but new readers to that series. So understanding that there's a whole history behind the series you're currently reading and making the effort to go out and get caught up on what's going on so you can understand is behavior that they're more or less used to because they've done it before. I just don't see that happening with the non-comics person. Marvel and DC wants to bring these people in as readers by licensing their superhero characters out, but in a way they are victimized by their own success. Their characters have been so successful in other media that they have effectively transcended the comics genre. You can be a superhero fan without having read a single comic. I know people who talk about how they are huge Batman fans who don't own a single comic book. They like Batman because of the animated shows, the live action movies, the Arkham games, etc. And these licensed versions of the character have self-contained stories -- no crossovers, no reboots, no retcons. Why would a non-comics person who is able to enjoy the character in a relatively easy-to-consume way decide to jump over the hurdles of trying to follow the comics, as convoluted as they can be? |
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Post by travishedgecoke on Jul 16, 2014 0:33:20 GMT -5
Whether people like it or not, in all honesty I think that digital, bookstores/trades, and Image are the future for comics, in that those will be the growth sectors for attracting new readers. Digital and bookstores because we've established that comics shops are, on the whole, unwelcoming to new readers. Getting into any new hobby is already a little daunting, but the stereotypical attitude of LCS staff raises the barrier to entry even higher to the point where I don't know that someone not already committed to comics would think it's worth it. Bookstores/trades because new readers are being acclimated to consuming media in larger chunks than the episodic format, e.g., binge-watching entire seasons. People who are willing to follow floppies on a monthly basis are more committed fans, not new or casual readers. Image and other independent publishers because their works are self-contained in a manner more similar to fiction publishing in general, and in a manner more likely to attract readers from the film/TV adaptations. If you liked the Harry Potter movies, you can get into the books by reading book 1. If you liked Hunger Games, you can get into the books by reading book 1. If you liked Walking Dead, you can get into the comics by reading book 1 of the TPB series. If you liked the Avengers, which one do you start with? Amen, though new readers do come in but that jumping on point is weird. It was weird back when I picked up Fantastic Four # 172 too and being completely lost, but I figured it out even without the Internet. It was just too cool not to read and gradually the pieces fell into place.
I think it's great that someone can pull up marvel.com or dccomics.com or wikia or Wikipedia or something to help fill in the cracks.
The long-running shared universe comics are hard to find "the" entry point into, but they generally do, I think, make an effort to create multiple functional entry points. Waid, Morrison, Kirby, Slott, Lobdell and those guys do make an effort to make each issue understandable, mostly, on its own, and keep the arcs down to three to six issues. Even when Alan Moore jumped onto an ongoing title, you're basically safe if you start with his first issue or his fifth. But they are immersive, because even if the history isn't being deal with up front, it's there. It's always there. But, the history of Nixon and colonialism is always there when you watch a movie set in the Vietnam War, too, and the reason that doesn't faze as much, I think, is because we don't expect it to. Kids, generally, don't seem to care. Kids can pick up a random Superman comic and understand it. It's mostly adults or teens who feel they're inherently missing something as soon as there's a bit they don't fully understand. I literally thought Gambit could make himself metal like Colossus, because an issue of X-Men said he was "all brass." I thought that for maybe two, three years. Why did he never blatantly turn into metal? I didn't care. He's all brass. Period. Talking to my oldest niece about Morrison's Batman run, around the time his B&R was ending, I realized that without the internet telling her different, she just assumed Morrison made up most of the flashbacks or references to things like Dr. Hurt's experiments or Joker losing a laughing contest to Robin. That he was referencing actual comics, as we talked, became acceptable to her, but she had no emotional stake in which ones were invented wholly and which were referency. She didn't think she'd misunderstood anything about the comics she'd read, and I don't think she did, either. The best of the guidebooks, for me, were always the ones that were full of novel ideas, but not all that specific. The TSR Green Lantern and LoSH rpgs don't give a timeline, really, for anything, but they list a zillion great concepts. Trying to put a real measure on Spider-Man's strength is going to never work out, or trying to sort how he and MJ were always broke when she seemed to get pretty good gigs and he was, while married, being lauded for his photography and even if Webs got remaindered everywhere, it was everywhere, meaning he got paid for all those already., that will never work out. You can't put actual bank statements out for Spidey or Batman or Scrooge McDuck. GQ doing "the ten richest men in comics" is inherently stupid, because Galactus probably has more "material wealth" and financial influence than any human being in that universe. Lilandra's got a space empire. Tony Stark has a series of usually failing companies. Anyhow, I just mean that the big superhero universes, tend to need and reward an audience who'll throw themselves in the deep end and splash about, dive for prizes, float along the surface. They don't really provide a functional kiddy pool for adults. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 7:52:42 GMT -5
I don't think a casual fan would be unwilling to look up stuff on the internet. It's pretty much ingrained in people to do so now, especially younger generations
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Post by travishedgecoke on Jul 16, 2014 8:03:30 GMT -5
I don't think a casual fan would be unwilling to look up stuff on the internet. It's pretty much ingrained in people to do so now, especially younger generations Being unwilling is more unlikely. Kids today are a google generation. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 16, 2014 10:48:38 GMT -5
Entry points and such are nice, but the fact of the matter is that anyone that's interested enough to buy a Spiderman Comic probably already knows his origin, his powers, and the main characters... the rest they can pick up as they go along. People do feel the need to watch, say, the Simpsons or Big Bang Theory from the beginning. Think about TV in general.. people flip around and pop in on things all the time.
I think the very most important thing that the comic book industry needs it to make it more socially acceptable to read comics. That's happening (a bit), but it needs to make great leaps yet. Reading a comic is still a 'geek' thing, especially in the US.
Clearly, people have interest in comic book properties, just not the actual comics. It will never happen, but I think some marketing could do a world of good.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jul 16, 2014 17:20:02 GMT -5
I'd mark this in the corner for in favor of digital: great sales. For instance I've been wanting to try the Goon for a while now and Dark Horse Digital just came out with a mega bundle collecting every issue of the Goon for 39 bucks. I've never seen a deal that good at my lcs.
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Post by comicscube on Jul 16, 2014 21:37:16 GMT -5
I just don't subscribe to the idea that things need to be watched/read from the beginning. Is there a desire to do so, to get into something? Sure, but it's not necessary. One of Ben's first comics was the death of Barry Allen, one of mine involved Black Costume Spider-Man fighting off a classic costume Spider-Man imposter, I got into Buffy at season 4, the Simpsons at season 3, Seinfeld at both seasons 7 and 4 because they were being shown on different channels. Lonesome Dove starts out with everyone retired and no one EVER relates in full detail everyone's life stories. I was watching Tombstone last month and at no point did I think "Wait, I'm sure I don't get this because I have no idea who Doc Holliday is" -- if anything, it made me want to find out who Doc Holliday really was. I think we as longtime fans tend to look at things in one direction -- that if casual readers don't know the backstory, they won't enjoy it -- that we forget to look for it in the other direction -- that if they enjoy it, they'll want to know the backstory.
Many of my friends -- and I mean many, from high school friends to college friends to people I work with -- didn't read comics, loved Avengers, and asked me for weeks - WEEKS! - about the characters, because they started looking at the source material. "Who's this red magic woman I see in this picture with Cap and Thor and Iron Man?" "So, in the comics, Thor flies on his own, or is it the hammer pulling him?" "Is Captain America really the leader in the comics? Because he was hot when he took charge." "Why are there no Black Widow comics? I have a crush on her." (That last one came from at least two different women.) It wasn't a case of them not getting things; it was a case of them enjoying it and wanting to know more. The same way I finished watching Tombstone and decided I wanted to know more about Doc Holliday.
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