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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 7, 2015 6:10:58 GMT -5
Just look at the sales figures. You base your enjoyment on sales figures? The sales figures mean that comic fans were voting with their wallets. In the 80's, Marvel was on the top of it's game with Iron Man, Daredevil, Thor , Byrnes FF. DC was doing okay and then they wiped it all with the Crisis. That's when they lost the 80's in my book. Edit: upon closer inspection Marvel just edged out Dc in the 80's. Moore made it close with his Swamp thing and Watchmen stuff. But the Crisis had a negative effect on some of their books like Legion and All Star Squadron. Although the reboot of Superman was much needed. I didn't like the Bwah ha era of the JLA but it was floundering before with the Detroit gang. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2015 8:15:08 GMT -5
You base your enjoyment on sales figures? The sales figures mean that comic fans were voting with their wallets. In the 80's, Marvel was on the top of it's game with Iron Man, Daredevil, Thor , Byrnes FF. DC was doing okay and then they wiped it all with the Crisis. That's when they lost the 80's in my book. Edit: upon closer inspection Marvel just edged out Dc in the 80's. Moore made it close with his Swamp thing and Watchmen stuff. But the Crisis had a negative effect on some of their books like Legion and All Star Squadron. Although the reboot of Superman was much needed. I didn't like the Bwah ha era of the JLA but it was floundering before with the Detroit gang. Except popularity doesn't necessarily equate with quality and comic fans have a tendency to buy crap out of loyalty or a sense of completism even when they hate the product, they can't bring themselves to not buy it. Plus you know, all those people buying 2 copies of X-Men throughout the 80s, one to read one to save, distorts actual readership in sales figures even back then. The sales figures more reflect the quirks of fandom than consumers voting with their wallet. If sales means quality then those Marvel events of the present are better than anything else on the market because they tend to outsell them and Bendis' Avengers was better than Busiek/Perez era because on the whole it outsold it. But then some people just like to chase winners and jump on bandwagons too and that is reflected in sales numbers despite the actual quality of the books. -M |
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Post by Trevor on Sept 7, 2015 8:42:51 GMT -5
I love Marvel, but DC nostalgia wins any decade for me, at least by a small margin.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2015 9:21:04 GMT -5
Picks of what I prefer...
30's-DC undisputed pretty much since Timely didn't really get much out until '40 (just a couple of issues of Marvel Comics/Mystery in '39)
40's-DC I like the Timely stuff, I really like the DC stuff
50's-DC-this was where the DC Silver Age started, Flash in Showcase, the Martian Manhunter back ups, etc. etc. plus the great war books and sci-fi
60's-Marvel-Lee/Ditko Dr. Strange, Steranko Nick Fury, Kirby, etc. outpace by far what I liked from DC
70's-Marvel-I was a Bronze Age Marvel baby so the House of Ideas gets the nod
80's-DC (Marvel wins the first half of the decade by a small margin, DC blows away Marvel in the 2nd half of the decade, so DC takes it on a late round KO)
90's-DC- the bulk of DCs stuff wasn't that good, but the bulk of Marvel's output was downright terrible until Heroes Return
00's-Marvel-mostly for stuff like Bendis DD, Bru's Cap, DD and Immortal Iron Fist, the Annihilation stuff, Abnett/Lanning GotG & Nova, etc.
10's-Marvel if restricted to just the big 2; the DC stuff I like has been outside their main publishing venture-stuff like Astro City, Joe Kubert Presents, etc. but mainstream DC has been nearly unreadable for me; Marvel has had a handful of titles I really enjoyed (Fraction's Hawkeye, Waid's Daredevil, Ms. Marvel, etc.) despite my not liking a lot of their output
-M
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Post by gothos on Sept 7, 2015 13:21:08 GMT -5
30s-- not really a competition, as Yimely bared exited, but DC obviously takes it for S & B.
40s-- I'll be the sole booster of the proto-Marvel here, 'cause I'm giving it to Timely. It's true that DC pioneered some seminal characters, esp with Wonder Woman and Justice Society. But so much of DC's 1940s output is bland and conventional, that I have to give it to Marvel just for their "Big Three." Plus, I like that even in the late 1940s Timely hewed closer to the sensationalism of the pulps, with the short-lived All Winners Squad and a couple of Captain Americas from that period.
50s-- Atlas had some nice stuff, like BLACK KNIGHT and the suspense/SF stuff from the later 50s, but DC did the most important work in gearing up the Silver Age and getting more SF-tropes in the superhero books.
60s-- DC did some great stuff here, and I admire how the company loosened up enough to do things like Metamorpho, Doom Patral, and Sugar & Spike. But Marvel rules the decade. Even the second-string books like Daredevil opened up new horizons.
70s--Still some impressive stuff from DC, but Marvel captures the lions' share of the creativity as it attracts more of the "Young Turks" on titles like Killraven, HOward the Duck, and the horror-hero books.
80s-- Defintitely DC; Marvel falls into a conservative slump, with only a few superior super-stars (Miller, Simonson), while DC/Vertigo really brings a new mature ethic to comics-- as well as coming up with the best X=imitator, NEW TEEN TITANS.
And the 90s is where I stopped regular collecting, but I think DC continued building on their 80s successes while Marvel just stayed the course. Possibly Marvel gets a little less forumlaic in the 2000s.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 7, 2015 16:27:24 GMT -5
You base your enjoyment on sales figures? The sales figures mean that comic fans were voting with their wallets. In the 80's, Marvel was on the top of it's game with Iron Man, Daredevil, Thor , Byrnes FF. DC was doing okay and then they wiped it all with the Crisis. That's when they lost the 80's in my book. Edit: upon closer inspection Marvel just edged out Dc in the 80's. Moore made it close with his Swamp thing and Watchmen stuff. But the Crisis had a negative effect on some of their books like Legion and All Star Squadron. Although the reboot of Superman was much needed. I didn't like the Bwah ha era of the JLA but it was floundering before with the Detroit gang. But, as MRP points out, sales figures mean jack-all. Especially in a medium where people buy a huge amount of comics out of habit. If sales figures mean that much then Avatar and Titanic are the greatest movies ever made. Unless we adjust for inflation...then it's Gone With the Wind. And while those may (or may not) be fine films...very few people are suggesting they're the best ever. |
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Post by Action Ace on Sept 7, 2015 18:52:07 GMT -5
For me, it is a DC sweep of various margins.
1930s/40s: I haven't read much Timely, but I did like the Torch/Namor fight and the little Captain America I've read. My second favorite publisher of the decade after DC/ All-American is Fawcett.
1950s: I don't think I've read a Marvel comic from this decade. I should probably give Commiebuster Cap a try.
1960s: I like a few spots from other comics, but mostly my Marvel love in the 1960s is for just Spider-Man and Fantastic Four. For me, DC is mostly gold until it all goes to hell in a handbasket in 1968.
1970s: Like DC, this decade will always be "home." Still not enough to challenge DC for the top spot though.
1980s: Marvel makes one of its closer approaches in the early 1980s, but DC speeds off into the distance in the middle and later parts of the decade.
1990s: The number of Marvel comics from this decade I like, not written by Waid or Busiek, can possibly be counted on one hand.
2000s: Due to pre Civil War Marvel and the Ultimate line, the early 2000s is my peak Marvel era for purchases. At one point, my Marvel list was almost half as long as DC's. Then came Civil War and DC's new event driven rollercoaster ride and the contest was over.
2010s: Captian America #26 is the last issue I've bought from the main Marvel universe. The next one up is Spidey #1 at the end of the year. I do like the Star Wars comics Marvel is putting out.
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Post by fanboystranger on Sept 7, 2015 19:18:24 GMT -5
The sales figures mean that comic fans were voting with their wallets. In the 80's, Marvel was on the top of it's game with Iron Man, Daredevil, Thor , Byrnes FF. DC was doing okay and then they wiped it all with the Crisis. That's when they lost the 80's in my book. Edit: upon closer inspection Marvel just edged out Dc in the 80's. Moore made it close with his Swamp thing and Watchmen stuff. But the Crisis had a negative effect on some of their books like Legion and All Star Squadron. Although the reboot of Superman was much needed. I didn't like the Bwah ha era of the JLA but it was floundering before with the Detroit gang. But, as MRP points out, sales figures mean jack-all. Especially in a medium where people buy a huge amount of comics out of habit. If sales figures mean that much then Avatar and Titanic are the greatest movies ever made. Unless we adjust for inflation...then it's Gone With the Wind. And while those may (or may not) be fine films...very few people are suggesting they're the best ever. Plus, the stories that tend to be remembered as something special or something that progressed the medium in new directions generally weren't in the best selling titles. High selling titles tend to play it safe, but marginal titles often have the latitude to try new things. While there are exceptions, we usually don't remember the average issue of a high-selling title, but we do remember excellent cancelled series, regardless of how poorly they sold. (This has especially been the case in the past two decades.) |
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 7, 2015 19:49:20 GMT -5
But, as MRP points out, sales figures mean jack-all. Especially in a medium where people buy a huge amount of comics out of habit. If sales figures mean that much then Avatar and Titanic are the greatest movies ever made. Unless we adjust for inflation...then it's Gone With the Wind. And while those may (or may not) be fine films...very few people are suggesting they're the best ever. Plus, the stories that tend to be remembered as something special or something that progressed the medium in new directions generally weren't in the best selling titles. High selling titles tend to play it safe, but marginal titles often have the latitude to try new things. While there are exceptions, we usually don't remember the average issue of a high-selling title, but we do remember excellent cancelled series, regardless of how poorly they sold. (This has especially been the case in the past two decades.) I've seen those pie charts that indicate Marvel had the most market share and units sold since the 70's. Maybe DC had the lead when they Launched Nu52 , but it was short lived. I have to disagree with you guys. Sales matter. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 7, 2015 20:01:43 GMT -5
Plus, the stories that tend to be remembered as something special or something that progressed the medium in new directions generally weren't in the best selling titles. High selling titles tend to play it safe, but marginal titles often have the latitude to try new things. While there are exceptions, we usually don't remember the average issue of a high-selling title, but we do remember excellent cancelled series, regardless of how poorly they sold. (This has especially been the case in the past two decades.) I've seen those pie charts that indicate Marvel had the most market share and units sold since the 70's. Maybe DC had the lead when they Launched Nu52 , but it was short lived. I have to disagree with you guys. Sales matter. They matter to shareholders. They matter to bean-counters. They don't mean diddly when it comes to quality or importance. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 7, 2015 20:15:24 GMT -5
I've seen those pie charts that indicate Marvel had the most market share and units sold since the 70's. Maybe DC had the lead when they Launched Nu52 , but it was short lived. I have to disagree with you guys. Sales matter. They matter to shareholders. They matter to bean-counters. They don't mean diddly when it comes to quality or importance. It is a source of approval, and an indication that good solid entertainment is being produced. Marvel produced many books of Quality and Importance in those years in question. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 7, 2015 20:31:11 GMT -5
They matter to shareholders. They matter to bean-counters. They don't mean diddly when it comes to quality or importance. It is a source of approval, and an indication that good solid entertainment is being produced. Marvel produced many books of Quality and Importance in those years in question. I didn't say they didn't. I simply said that sales =/= quality. And they absolutely don't. You can look at any artform and confirm that. I guess that Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey are among the greatest works of literature ever. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Sept 7, 2015 20:34:46 GMT -5
You said it yourself. They're at their peak right now in terms of market share, yet, the general consensus here is that most of what they've been producing lately is either drivel or just won't matter in the future except from within fandom. Many Eisner award winners sell close to nothing compared to Marvel charts, yet... There are people who eat at McDonalds almost everyday and would state it's the best food there is. And lastly, they're not called Marvel Zombies for nothing...  Art and entertainment just aren't the same thing. Doesn't mean you can't find entertainment in art and vice versa, but it's good to not get confused with these two. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 7, 2015 20:39:01 GMT -5
You said it yourself. They're at their peak right now in terms of market share, yet, the general consensus here is that most of what they've been producing lately is either drivel or just won't matter in the future except from within fandom. Many Eisner award winners sell close to nothing compared to Marvel charts, yet... There are people who eat at McDonalds almost everyday and would state it's the best food there is. And lastly, tey're not called Marvel Zombies for nothing... I'm not referring to the recycled plots of the comics of today. But Marvel was producing great books from the 60's to the 80's. Their sales figures reflected that, and rightly so. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Sept 7, 2015 20:45:50 GMT -5
What Marvel comic seriously had an impact outside comic book fandom during those years? I'm talking the sole artistic merits and impact of the comic, not its sociological or economical impacts. I'm not saying there isn't any, but appart from Miller's run on Daredevil and Howard The Duck, I'm struggling to find it. And however good Walt Simonson's run on Thor or Byrne's on Superman are, maybe sadly so, but no one cared about those outside of comic book fandom, or so I think Oh, and if one thought numbers matter in that equation, how about Eisner award wins for works? Since 1988, Marvel had 19 while DC had 84. If we're talking people, then Marvel ot 29 and DC 102... Yet it would be simplistic to base opinion on the matter at hand mostly on that Eisner factor, wouldn't it? |
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