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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 17:11:08 GMT -5
When Castro first rose to power, it's not like the state of Cuba could've gotten a whole lot worse. So make even the most incremental of improvements, and of course there will be a segment of the poorest that is devoted to you. But we're not talking about minor improvements, we're talking about pretty major ones. And it wasn't merely a segment of the poorest that benefit, it was pretty much all of them; those who lost out under Castro tended to be the highest earners, the ones who could afford it. Really? It seems like everyone became poor. Not like N Korea or African nations run by dictators but not a great standard of living. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 19:06:33 GMT -5
...and survived over 600 assassination attempts. Hang on, was Fidel Castro actually James Bond?!  I think Castro's 35,000 notches will make even Bond hang his head in shame. Let's see...2-3 bonks per day x 365 days per year = 730-1095 bonks per year Years in power = 5 decades or 50 years = yep, in excess of 35,000 |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 28, 2016 19:33:07 GMT -5
The Batista regime was as corrupt as they come, and most Cubans welcomed Castro's revolution with open arms. A few years later, they even pushed back the US-backed invasion at the Bay of Pigs because they didn't want a return to the bad old days.
Backed by the USSR and by sympathetic regimes like Venezuela, who provided cheap oil, Cuba then managed to raise general standards of living even as it was limiting personal freedom. Education, medical and social services reached or exceeded levels comparable to those found in many developed countries, and that despite the US embargo. Cubans were very proud of their revolution, especially as it was cast in a David vs Goliath light regarding their hostile American neighbour.
Next came the collapse of the USSR but no lifting of the embargo, and the Cuban economy went down the drain (with no increase in personal freedom, so it was the worst of both worlds). People still had great schools and great medical care (they actually export doctors), but less and less to eat. There was great disillusionment regarding the regime, which couldn't provide paying jobs anymore but kept repressing speech and ideas. Luckily, while Fidel didn't want to give up his ideology, but his brother Raul seems to be more pragmatic; this, however, is currently making matters even worse economocally (as the state-directed economy shrinks black market thrives).
It's worth repeating that unlike many other strongmen convinced that they're right, Castro didn't just fill his pockets and live the big life while his people suffered (like a Pol Pot, a Kim Jong Il or a Mobutu Sese Seko). He actually did good things for the Cuban society, and significant things too as Tingramretro pointed out. It doesn't excuse his crimes, but it shows that not is all black and white when we judge such an important figure.
Now that he's dead (and may he rest in peace, despite his reprehensible deeds), it's time for Cuba to be truly free. Obama made great strides to normalize relations with the country and lift that ridiculous embargo. That would do wonders to smooth a transition toward a more liberal society.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 28, 2016 19:35:30 GMT -5
...and survived over 600 assassination attempts. Hang on, was Fidel Castro actually James Bond?! I think Castro's 35,000 notches will make even Bond hang his head in shame. Let's see...2-3 bonks per day x 365 days per year = 730-1095 bonks per year Years in power = 5 decades or 50 years = yep, in excess of 35,000 Come on, James, the honour of England is at stake!!! |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 28, 2016 19:43:03 GMT -5
How strange to find someone who has gone on and on for months about how evil Donald Trump is but can find the good side of Fidel Castro, never mind that he had executed and/or imprisoned thousands upon thousands of political prisoners. Acting as King Of Cuba for close to 50 years, insisting Russia arm him with nuclear weapons, fomenting revolutions in Latin America..I guess, as long as the despot leans to the left, he's got to be nicer the the evil Trump  . You must have loved Stalin too! |
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 28, 2016 23:28:23 GMT -5
RIP to character actor and long time favorite Fritz Weaver. You name it and he was probably in it. Well showcased in The Andromeda Strain and had a nice turn as a villain in the pilot for The Man From UNCLE.
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Post by Warmonger on Nov 29, 2016 5:13:01 GMT -5
How strange to find someone who has gone on and on for months about how evil Donald Trump is but can find the good side of Fidel Castro, never mind that he had executed and/or imprisoned thousands upon thousands of political prisoners. Acting as King Of Cuba for close to 50 years, insisting Russia arm him with nuclear weapons, fomenting revolutions in Latin America..I guess, as long as the despot leans to the left, he's got to be nicer the the evil Trump . You must have loved Stalin too! Yeah I don't get it It's kinda like saying "Yeah, Hitler was a piece of sh*t...but he loved his dogs and had some good ideas like the autobahn." Cuba was kept impoverished throughout Castro's 50 year rule, he forced gays into work camps as well as executed them, imprisoned artists and musicians for expressionism, etc. One of his own daughters defected to America in the early 90's. Not sure how anyone could weep for him. It's kinda like the goofy liberal college kids who walk around wearing their Che Guevara t-shirts knowing nothing about him other than he was a "rebel". |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 29, 2016 5:38:51 GMT -5
Let's also not forget the role Cuba played in the international drug cartel. Castro was quite willing, for the sake of money, to let the cartels use his country for safe harbor and money laundering. Castro and the Medellin Cartel were partners during the 1980s and 1990s. Fidel had zero tolerance for drugs within his own kingdom, but had no problems with cocaine trafficking to other harbors
Also, quite telling, was the steady stream of desperate citizens, braving anyway possible to leave his country, even if it meant drowning on makeshift rafts. The exodus got so bad and public that Castro agreed, for one time only, to let those who wish leave safely to the United States. It was all a ruse of course. He used this event to empty out his mental asylums and send his most vicious criminals all in the pretense of humanitarian largess. This was called the Mariel exodus of 1980, touched upon in the film Scarface with Al Pacino
Cuba was also the destination for hideout for American murderers and felons such as cop-killer Joanne Chasimard. Any killer of American authority was a friend of Fidel's. Planes being hijacked to be taken to Cuba for refugee by criminals became a weekly event in the early 1970's, forcing airlines to institute searches of passenger carry-on's and undergo x-ray machine scanning for the first time. Fidel welcomed them all (but they had to share some of the booty with him).
Like Mussolini, he had the trains run on time. Like Hitler serving milk and cookies at his youth camps, he was a friendly Uncle Fidel. And as documented by the recently released book by his personal bodyguard for 17 years, Fidel enjoyed the rich life on his own private mansion and numerous estates. Such a man of the people.
Roast in Peace Fidel.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 29, 2016 6:04:03 GMT -5
Don't mince words, ish  |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 29, 2016 7:51:28 GMT -5
How strange to find someone who has gone on and on for months about how evil Donald Trump is but can find the good side of Fidel Castro, never mind that he had executed and/or imprisoned thousands upon thousands of political prisoners. Acting as King Of Cuba for close to 50 years, insisting Russia arm him with nuclear weapons, fomenting revolutions in Latin America..I guess, as long as the despot leans to the left, he's got to be nicer the the evil Trump . You must have loved Stalin too! I don't know if Castro was nicer than Trump. For all I know, he might have been a plesant fellow (like George W. Bush, apparently, whom everyone describes as a genial fellow). I'm sure Castro was far more dangerous as an individual than Trump is, though, because he was acting out of ideology. Ideologists are always dangerous. They can't accept that their beliefs can be wrong, and even in the face of overwhelming evidence they still think their way is the only way. Be they right wing or left wing, it's the same attitude. Trump, meanwhile, is not an ideologue... He's just a rich guy who wants to be president. My strong objection to the man is that his own words are xenophobic, racist, sexist, and most of the time consist of inflammatory material that is factually wrong. (That latter point is not my opinion, but Politifacts's). Unpleasant as he might be, and notwithstanding the harm that his policies might cause, Trump could never be "as bad" as Castro, if only because the US isn't a dictatorship. But then, when criticizing Trump for his apalling behaviour in the US presidential debate, we're not comparing him to Castro, Pol Pot or bloody Stalin. We're comparing him to Hillary Clinton. When Castro dies, we're not asking whether he should be nominated for the Nobel peace prize; we take a moment to reflect on a man's life. Then, if we are honest, we consider the good he might have done along with the bad. If we honestly believe that all he did was evil and that he deserves our utter contempt, well fine; others may however disagree. I personally believe that while the good he did does not negate the evil he also did, it is nevertheless not trivial and makes Castro look better (or at least no worse) than many other politicians, be they on the right or the left, who apparently get a free pass because they were on "our" side. Oh, and for the record, when George W. Bush or Donald Trump die (as far in the future as possible), I will say "rest in peace". |
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Post by tingramretro on Nov 29, 2016 8:36:58 GMT -5
Let's also not forget the role Cuba played in the international drug cartel. Castro was quite willing, for the sake of money, to let the cartels use his country for safe harbor and money laundering. Castro and the Medellin Cartel were partners during the 1980s and 1990s. Fidel had zero tolerance for drugs within his own kingdom, but had no problems with cocaine trafficking to other harbors Also, quite telling, was the steady stream of desperate citizens, braving anyway possible to leave his country, even if it meant drowning on makeshift rafts. The exodus got so bad and public that Castro agreed, for one time only, to let those who wish leave safely to the United States. It was all a ruse of course. He used this event to empty out his mental asylums and send his most vicious criminals all in the pretense of humanitarian largess. This was called the Mariel exodus of 1980, touched upon in the film Scarface with Al Pacino Cuba was also the destination for hideout for American murderers and felons such as cop-killer Joanne Chasimard. Any killer of American authority was a friend of Fidel's. Planes being hijacked to be taken to Cuba for refugee by criminals became a weekly event in the early 1970's, forcing airlines to institute searches of passenger carry-on's and undergo x-ray machine scanning for the first time. Fidel welcomed them all (but they had to share some of the booty with him). Like Mussolini, he had the trains run on time. Like Hitler serving milk and cookies at his youth camps, he was a friendly Uncle Fidel. And as documented by the recently released book by his personal bodyguard for 17 years, Fidel enjoyed the rich life on his own private mansion and numerous estates. Such a man of the people. Roast in Peace Fidel. I'm not going to comment on any of this, because I don't see much point; you clearly believe what you believe and won't see any othr viewpoint as valid. But I do find that last comment in poor taste, offensive and totally unnecessary. |
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Post by Lolatadatodo on Nov 29, 2016 8:41:15 GMT -5
You all are really still arguing about Castro??
So, let's take a count: how may for "rest in peace", and how many for "roast in peace"?
That is how you are really going to know which side wins.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 29, 2016 8:47:16 GMT -5
I'm not going to comment on any of this, because I don't see much point; you clearly believe what you believe and won't see any othr viewpoint as valid. But I do find that last comment in poor taste, offensive and totally unnecessary. Well, that's not going to keep me awake at nights But my respects to all those Cuban-Americans in Florida who have been dancing in the streets the last few nights since the dictator's death was announced. One Castro down, one more brother to go |
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Post by tingramretro on Nov 29, 2016 8:50:47 GMT -5
Unbelievable. I think I'm about done with this discussion. I'll just end up saying something regrettable.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 29, 2016 8:50:55 GMT -5
You all are really still arguing about Castro?? So, let's take a count: how may for "rest in peace", and how many for "roast in peace"? That is how you are really going to know which side wins. I guess so. Some people love their tyrants so badly they get offended by those toasting marshmallows by the funeral pyre. In other news, I'm sad about Fritz Weaver. He was a good one |
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