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Post by Paradox on Oct 7, 2015 4:23:06 GMT -5
I'm no Martian historian, but I do know I couldn't stand what they did to him in the early '70s. I remember a World's Finest where he was nothing but a bald, green Superman. Not even beetle-browed, just plain old Caucasian features That's how he looked from the late 50s to the 80s, isn't it? More or less, but they handled his powers better when he was a JLA member. Once he was gone from that, he was relegated to "nobody wants to use him limbo". |
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Post by MDG on Oct 7, 2015 11:59:37 GMT -5
Y'know, I wonder how much influence Julie Schwartz had in shaping Martian Manhunter by how he was used in the JLA--he was pretty hands-on with his writers and artists, which I don't get from Jack Schiff. And certainly his bronze-age appearances owed more to what happened in the JLA than in Detective or HOM.
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 7, 2015 17:03:39 GMT -5
Although Jack Schiff was the editor of Detective Comics at the time of the original Martian Manhunter series, Jack Miller served as the strip's story editor and frequent scripter (as he was on the Aquaman stories in Adventure and World's Finest). As Marty surmises, Miller was not involved in these strips' plotting and overall direction to anywhere near the extent that Julius Schwartz was with his titles. And yes, Schwartz revamped/rebooted J'onn (beginning with JLA #71) and was solely responsible for the character's continuity for over a decade, Manhunter appearing exclusively in Schwartz's books until the early '80s.
Cei-U!
I summon the peek behind the curtain!
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 7, 2015 17:33:50 GMT -5
Y'know, I wonder how much influence Julie Schwartz had in shaping Martian Manhunter by how he was used in the JLA--he was pretty hands-on with his writers and artists, which I don't get from Jack Schiff. And certainly his bronze-age appearances owed more to what happened in the JLA than in Detective or HOM. Which is a shame, because I quite like the Schiff Manhunter stories and in the JLA J. J. was nothing more than Superman-lite with a strange emphasis on superbreath. Obviously neither Fox nor Schwartz particularly cared for the character and when Superman became a full-member-with-cover-appearances-and-everything the Martian Manhunter was used less and less before they shipped him back to Mars. (It occurs to me that Aquaman got a similar treatment - I suspect that this is due too their being (A) not under Julie Schwartz' editorial umbrella, and (B) Not being proven sales generators like Superman and Batman... although they let Green Arrow stick around. So who knows?) |
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Post by gothos on Oct 7, 2015 17:44:27 GMT -5
Y'know, I wonder how much influence Julie Schwartz had in shaping Martian Manhunter by how he was used in the JLA--he was pretty hands-on with his writers and artists, which I don't get from Jack Schiff. And certainly his bronze-age appearances owed more to what happened in the JLA than in Detective or HOM. Which is a shame, because I quite like the Schiff Manhunter stories and in the JLA J. J. was nothing more than Superman-lite with a strange emphasis on superbreath. Obviously neither Fox nor Schwartz particularly cared for the character and when Superman became a full-member-with-cover-appearances-and-everything the Martian Manhunter was used less and less before they shipped him back to Mars. (It occurs to me that Aquaman got a similar treatment - I suspect that this is due too their being (A) not under Julie Schwartz' editorial umbrella, and (B) Not being proven sales generators like Superman and Batman... although they let Green Arrow stick around. So who knows?) Fox did occasionally show MM stretching his arm a la Elongated Man, which you didn't see with Superman. Maybe he wished DC would let EM into the League, but some company politics interfered. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 7, 2015 17:47:04 GMT -5
I didn't remember that - good to know. The Silver Age Martian Manhunter actually seemed like one of the more jovial leaguers, so giving him Plastic Man/EM powers makes good historical sense, as well as providing a neat, non-Superman-esque visual.
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Post by chadwilliam on Oct 20, 2015 15:29:00 GMT -5
My familiarity with the Martian Manhunter extends only as far as the 15 or so Detective Comics I own from 225-326 allows it to, but I've gleaned bits and pieces here and there.
One question -
In his first appearance, the Manhunter expresses a desire to get back to Mars but can't seeing as how Dr Erdel dies shortly after bringing him to Earth. I know that he eventually does get home in the late 1960's but before this, was it ever explained why he couldn't simply fly there as his powers expanded or use the JLA's help once he joined the team? Actually, was this possibility ever addressed during his first 10/15 or so years or was it simply forgotten? |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 20, 2015 16:33:05 GMT -5
My familiarity with the Martian Manhunter extends only as far as the 15 or so Detective Comics I own from 225-326 allows it to, but I've gleaned bits and pieces here and there.
One question -
In his first appearance, the Manhunter expresses a desire to get back to Mars but can't seeing as how Dr Erdel dies shortly after bringing him to Earth. I know that he eventually does get home in the late 1960's but before this, was it ever explained why he couldn't simply fly there as his powers expanded or use the JLA's help once he joined the team? Actually, was this possibility ever addressed during his first 10/15 or so years or was it simply forgotten? I don't believe he could fly in space. In the first Brave and the Bold team-up story he astrally projects (or something) back home to Mars, but I don't know if this was something he did every day. |
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Post by gothos on Oct 21, 2015 15:23:37 GMT -5
Although Jack Schiff was the editor of Detective Comics at the time of the original Martian Manhunter series, Jack Miller served as the strip's story editor and frequent scripter (as he was on the Aquaman stories in Adventure and World's Finest). As Marty surmises, Miller was not involved in these strips' plotting and overall direction to anywhere near the extent that Julius Schwartz was with his titles. And yes, Schwartz revamped/rebooted J'onn (beginning with JLA #71) and was solely responsible for the character's continuity for over a decade, Manhunter appearing exclusively in Schwartz's books until the early '80s. Cei-U! I summon the peek behind the curtain! Okay, I'll be Mr. Argumentative again-- I wouldn't say that Schwartz "revamped/rebooted" J'onn in JLA #71, because all JS really did was find a reason to get rid of the Martian and his whole culture. In Schwartz's JLA, J'onn had last appeared in #61, "Operation: Jail the Justice League," wherein most of the heroes got paired with their favorite villains in a complicated Gardner Fox plot. (Poor Manhunter didn't have any villains worth mentioning  , so Fox paired him up with Doctor Light.) That issue came out in March 68, roughly the same time MM's series in HOUSE OF MYSTERY came to an end. It's not unlikely that once the solo series was gone, Schwartz decided to downplay the Martian in JLA to see if fans even missed his being gone. On top of that, Fox, who had used J'onn consistently since the JLA series started, left that series with issue #65, and I would bet that newer scripters like Denny O'Neil had zero interest in (a) telling the type of stories Fox wrote, or (b) bothering about a green-skinned bald "Superman." Still, I'll also wager that Schwartz was clever enough to see how the lay of the land had changed with comic-book continuity, not least because he had a lot to do with that. He probably guessed that sentimental fans would want to have a story that saw J'onn off, rather than simply dumping him, and so collaborated with O'Neil on the story from #71. An additional benefit of that story is that it presented readers with a Mars that no longer boasted an intelligent super-species. Whereas a guy like Robert Kanigher had no problem in bringing in hordes of "Martian" invaders to fight WONDER WOMAN whenever he pleased, Schwartz probably guessed that fan-readers would be more demanding, wondering why Superman and other heroes never seemed to encounter Manhunter's people. Better to just dump J'onn and his people-- though, as it happens, IMO it's the best story O'Neil contributed to the JLA title. After that, I assume you're right that Schwartz was the only one who bothered to revive MM for most of the 1970s-- though I seem to remember that it was Marshall Rogers who re-introduced the character's beetle-browed look once more, getting rid of the "green Casper" physiognomy from then on. |
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Post by gothos on Oct 21, 2015 15:29:33 GMT -5
My familiarity with the Martian Manhunter extends only as far as the 15 or so Detective Comics I own from 225-326 allows it to, but I've gleaned bits and pieces here and there.
One question -
In his first appearance, the Manhunter expresses a desire to get back to Mars but can't seeing as how Dr Erdel dies shortly after bringing him to Earth. I know that he eventually does get home in the late 1960's but before this, was it ever explained why he couldn't simply fly there as his powers expanded or use the JLA's help once he joined the team? Actually, was this possibility ever addressed during his first 10/15 or so years or was it simply forgotten? I don't believe he could fly in space. In the first Brave and the Bold team-up story he astrally projects (or something) back home to Mars, but I don't know if this was something he did every day. I don't remember any comic ever showing MM flying in space, and some HOM stories suggest that he needed a spaceship to get there physically. The "astral travel" thing would have been a very Burroughsian solution to MM's problem, but I don't think it was used more than once or twice. In Steve Englehart's JLA-retcon, Superman offers to fly the Martian back to his world-- an easy solution to J'onn's problem, but not one that 1950s scripters would've acknowledged as a possibility. By that time J'onn has come to think of Earth as a second home and declines the Man of Steel's offer. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 21, 2015 18:22:20 GMT -5
Scipio makes the case for Apex City, Florida, as the location for the Martian Manhunter's Silver Age fictionopolis. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 21, 2015 18:39:19 GMT -5
"The Idol-Head of Diabolu" shares this perspective on the merits of Middletown. Middleton, Colo., is just wrong! |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 21, 2015 20:15:52 GMT -5
Because I'm that kind of guy, I agree with Scipio's analysis, but see no reason why it's not Middletown, Florida, which actually exists. One of Idol-Head's main points about putting it in New England was J'onn giving a dog a sweater, but that's just silly, people who live in Florida where sweaters when it's cold TO THEM... that doesn't prove anything. The fact that there's no ice and snow, and things explode into flame at a drop of a hat (thus, warm) makes more sense.  The Colorado thing is silly, at least in the stories I've read so far. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 21, 2015 20:22:23 GMT -5
Because I'm that kind of guy, I agree with Scipio's analysis, but see no reason why it's not Middletown, Florida, which actually exists. One of Idol-Head's main points about putting it in New England was J'onn giving a dog a sweater, but that's just silly, people who live in Florida where sweaters when it's cold TO THEM... that doesn't prove anything. The fact that there's no ice and snow, and things explode into flame at a drop of a hat (thus, warm) makes more sense. The Colorado thing is silly, at least in the stories I've read so far. When I was reading Scipio's posts, I found myself in the comments a lot, pushing for a location near Pensacola, Fla. In the next few days, I'm going to write a few paragraphs about why I think Middletown and Apex City are both suburbs of Pensacola, and why Pensacola is a totally awesome location for the Martian Manhunter mythos. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Oct 21, 2015 21:19:34 GMT -5
My familiarity with the Martian Manhunter extends only as far as the 15 or so Detective Comics I own from 225-326 allows it to, but I've gleaned bits and pieces here and there.
One question -
In his first appearance, the Manhunter expresses a desire to get back to Mars but can't seeing as how Dr Erdel dies shortly after bringing him to Earth. I know that he eventually does get home in the late 1960's but before this, was it ever explained why he couldn't simply fly there as his powers expanded or use the JLA's help once he joined the team? Actually, was this possibility ever addressed during his first 10/15 or so years or was it simply forgotten? I don't believe he could fly in space. In the first Brave and the Bold team-up story he astrally projects (or something) back home to Mars, but I don't know if this was something he did every day.
I guess that answers it then - I'm not really used to the idea of beings possessing that much power having any real limitations especially as far as Silver Age DC is concerned. Thanks Reptisaurus!
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, so Fox paired him up with Doctor Light.) That issue came out in March 68, roughly the same time MM's series in HOUSE OF MYSTERY came to an end. It's not unlikely that once the solo series was gone, Schwartz decided to downplay the Martian in JLA to see if fans even missed his being gone. On top of that, Fox, who had used J'onn consistently since the JLA series started, left that series with issue #65, and I would bet that newer scripters like Denny O'Neil had zero interest in (a) telling the type of stories Fox wrote, or (b) bothering about a green-skinned bald "Superman." Still, I'll also wager that Schwartz was clever enough to see how the lay of the land had changed with comic-book continuity, not least because he had a lot to do with that. He probably guessed that sentimental fans would want to have a story that saw J'onn off, rather than simply dumping him, and so collaborated with O'Neil on the story from #71. An additional benefit of that story is that it presented readers with a Mars that no longer boasted an intelligent super-species. Whereas a guy like Robert Kanigher had no problem in bringing in hordes of "Martian" invaders to fight WONDER WOMAN whenever he pleased, Schwartz probably guessed that fan-readers would be more demanding, wondering why Superman and other heroes never seemed to encounter Manhunter's people. Better to just dump J'onn and his people-- though, as it happens, IMO it's the best story O'Neil contributed to the JLA title.
