shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 20, 2015 15:45:08 GMT -5
In comics, it's only natural to root for the good guy and, therefore, assume the villain is in the wrong, but sometimes justice is a little more gray than the writers would care to imagine.
So choose a villain from a comic and defend them. Whether seriously arguing that Mutant Registration was the right move or tongue-in-cheek arguing that the universe would be a more well-ordered place in Thanos' hands, defend some bad guys and get this thread rolling!
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Oct 20, 2015 15:47:36 GMT -5
I'll start: Lex Luthor (Post-Crisis) He's a major jobs creator, gives to countless charities, has put us technologically on top again after decades of falling behind to other nations, and has generally made Metropolis a better place. So what if he crushed a few people to get everyone else up to that level? And really, what's he done wrong beyond opposing a liberal media that is obsessed with trying to take him down and doing his best to oppose an illegal immigrant who refuses to produce his birth certificate? Why isn't the Tea Party endorsing this guy? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 16:15:57 GMT -5
Parallax (Hal Jordan) - When his home town, Coast City, was destroyed in the Reign of the Supermen storyline, Hal Jordan was driven mad with grief. He gathered all the rings of the Green Lantern Corps, killing many of his former comrades and friends, in order to get the power to reshape reality to his liking. And that made him a villain, and all the other heroes worked to stop him in the Zero Hour story. Well, that's the official version. But think about it. If he had succeeded, he would have been able to undo all of that. Coast City, the Corps, everything would have been restored, and all of the 'evil' done by Parallax would have never happened. He was trying to go beyond the usual 'stop the bad guy' bit, and literally make a better world. Seriously, I spent the whole of Zero Hour rooting for him, and waiting for at least some of the other heroes to see it his way and help him. The DC Universe would have been a better place. 
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 20, 2015 16:31:52 GMT -5
I think, in a lot of ways, villains have been more compelling than the heroes since the late 80s or so... that's why so many of them end up anti-heroes. Doom, Magneto, Loki, heck, even Galactus.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 20, 2015 16:33:43 GMT -5
Parallax (Hal Jordan) -When his home town, Coast City, was destroyed in the Reign of the Supermen storyline, Hal Jordan was driven mad with grief. He gathered all the rings of the Green Lantern Corps, killing many of his former comrades and friends, in order to get the power to reshape reality to his liking. And that made him a villain, and all the other heroes worked to stop him in the Zero Hour story. Well, that's the official version. But think about it. If he had succeeded, he would have been able to undo all of that. Coast City, the Corps, everything would have been restored, and all of the 'evil' done by Parallax would have never happened. He was trying to go beyond the usual 'stop the bad guy' bit, and literally make a better world. Seriously, I spent the whole of Zero Hour rooting for him, and waiting for at least some of the other heroes to see it his way and help him. The DC Universe would have been a better place. Good point. After all, it's pretty much what Superman does at the end of Final Crisis, and everyone was okay with that example of reconstructing the universe to suit your whim. Granted, for Supes, there was no other alternative. |
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Oct 20, 2015 16:35:48 GMT -5
I think, in a lot of ways, villains have been more compelling than the heroes since the late 80s or so... that's why so many of them end up anti-heroes. Doom, Magneto, Loki, heck, even Galactus. I think Magneto had a point pretty much from the first issue. It was his characterization that always landed him squarely in the wrong, not necessarily his outlook. Even the Beast considers early on that Magneto may have a point after all. And Galactus was never evil; he was amoral, and his viewpoint was an enticing one, especially as Silver Surfer had to deliberate between that moral code and our own in his first storyline. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 20, 2015 16:46:44 GMT -5
True... Of course, we also have Sabertooth and Deadpool as Avengers, so that's a thing.
Magneto is the easiest argument of all. You can disagree with his methods, but he's totally right. both in-universe, and meta-wise.
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 20, 2015 18:01:41 GMT -5
I always root for the Cheetah.
Wonder Woman thinks she's so great! No wonder Priscilla Rich wanted to punch her stupid fat face!
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 20, 2015 22:59:54 GMT -5
Also, Vandal Savage. The dude has been around for a million years! He has experience! He knows what he's talking about!
I don't know why the JSA just can't accept that Vandal Savage knows best. They're just jealous! especially Hawkman! He thinks the ninth metal is so great! And he's not Mr. Perfect! Look at the way he kept Hawkgirl out of the JSA! What a jerk!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 23:12:19 GMT -5
I was thinking about Brainiac from DC Comics of how he simply one of Superman's toughest villains and for some unknown reasons he's a calculated, cold, and cunning too. His Panic In the Sky back in 1990 is one story to show how dangerous he can be.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 23:30:36 GMT -5
Turk-  I mean what's a dude supposed to do to make it happen, you know. The man makes it impossible to make ends meet here in the real world where real people not born with a silver spoon in their damned mouths live, so you got to hustle, man. I'm just doing my hustle and all these fascist longjohn freaks got to come hassle me man. If it's not them it's some uppity dude with delusions of adequacy thinking he runs the whole damn show trying to take what's yours, you know. I'm just trying to make a livin' dude, what's your problem and why you got to beat on me for doing what I do? Can't you just let a brother get along? -M |
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Post by Dizzy D on Oct 21, 2015 4:07:14 GMT -5
True... Of course, we also have Sabertooth and Deadpool as Avengers, so that's a thing. Magneto is the easiest argument of all. You can disagree with his methods, but he's totally right. both in-universe, and meta-wise. I completely disagree on Magneto being right. Of course, first comes what is it exactly what Magneto thinks/wants, because they are always rather vague about that. He tends to bounce around several concepts, but never seems to work out the details: Magneto sees conflict between mutants and humans as inevitable, due to his own history. OK, fair enough. I can go along with that, but what's next? - Domination: Mutants should rule, being born superior. Humans should fall in line and with any luck can live under the mutants' benevolent dictatorship. This is basically his pre-Claremont motivation. Yeah, obviously I can't go along with that, mutant superiority is usually a physical superiority, sometimes a mental superiority, but never a moral superiority. During all his lecturing on how humans are flawed, he always ignores that mutants have those exact same flaws. - Segregation: Mutants should live together, away from all humans so that they won't get into any conflict. Basically his big plan after he got disillusioned with Xavier's ideas. Whether that mutant sanctuary was Asteroid M, Genosha or another place. Biggest problem with this. is that (at least pre-House of M, post House of M, I have lost interest in the X-Men, because the mechanics behind the story/species no longer worked) humans give birth to mutants and occassionally mutants give birth to humans. Any solution that involves taking children away from their parents, I can't support. - Extermination: Mutants are the new hotness. Humans should just make some room and die. Mutants will be willing to help them do so, if needed. Magneto's idea when he is on the extra strong brand of crazy pills. Yeah, I think the problems are pretty apparent there. Basically Xavier's plans of peaceful mutant-human coexistence is the only longterm solution to any two connected groups having to share the same planet for an extended period of time that isn't pants-on-head crazy. Of course that is not going to be easy (see any mixed population in real life), so you'll need laws, human and mutant rights and people who enforce the peace (the big problem with the X-Men usually is, is that it's a group for human/mutant coexistence who then tend to isolate themselves from humanity and are exclusively mutants. Excalibur and early X-Factor did better in that way.) |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 21, 2015 4:35:57 GMT -5
- Domination: Mutants should rule, being born superior. Humans should fall in line and with any luck can live under the mutants' benevolent dictatorship. This is basically his pre-Claremont motivation. Yeah, obviously I can't go along with that, mutant superiority is usually a physical superiority, sometimes a mental superiority, but never a moral superiority. During all his lecturing on how humans are flawed, he always ignores that mutants have those exact same flaws. You are correct that his point does keep changing, but the most convincing rationale he ever offers for this is that because conflict between humans and mutants is inevitable, mutants should do what they must to come out on top. It's Cold War rationale, really. If war between the Americans and the Soviets is inevitable, you do what you must to make sure you're the side that wins. And if you are naturally more powerful than the other side, than you should use that distinct edge. A more evolved viewpoint than the previous one. Maybe war between humans and mutants isn't inevitable. Let's keep the two sides apart to avert such a disaster. Even if all out war doesn't break out, one single act of intolerance against an innocent mutant is too many. Do what must be done to avert it. Some humans would agree here, especially when you have mutants out there with tremendous powers and little ability (physically or morally) to control them. This is not the same as racial segregation as there is an actual inherent risk when living with untrained mutants. Harder to get behind this one, of course, but it's probably analogous to humans' relationship with deer. We compete for the same land and feel no need to create reserves for them. We don't exactly hate deer, but they cause traffic accidents and hurt/kill people when too many of them are around, so we see no moral problem with thinning the herds and having formalized hunting seasons while still being able to call them cute. Xavier's plan makes sense only in a fictional universe in which average everyday mutants never inadvertently melt off someone's face or blow up a city block. If all mutants were Artie Maddox, there'd be no issue, but many of them truly would pose a danger to society, and that would be the tipping point for extreme hostilities. Mutant registration would be the most civilized reaction to come out of such a predicament. All out war/genocide would be the least. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 21, 2015 8:18:59 GMT -5
One of the reasons most stories centered on Magneto never appealed to me in the way that I would think the writer is intending, Magento a villain and therefore wrong, is that human history hasn't shown us to feel that our "superiority" within our own species and other species residing on this planet. Of course self preservation is the motivation to not allow the homo superior to dominate the homo sapiens, but the arrogance that our comeuppance is somehow not called for in regards to our relations to other species and how now we are being treated as we have treated others, is off putting and enough that after a while I just didn't care for reading them anymore.
I do like that in X3 in leaving Mystique a human he got his comeuppance at the end of the movie, even if it were only temporary. Sometimes, villains or heroes until we are in a situation we really just can't grasp it. I thought that aspect was done well in the movie, as it seemed Magneto's greatest fear was having no power.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 21, 2015 9:32:03 GMT -5
Here's the thing with Magneto... Mutants ARE persecuted in the Marvel universe, most of the time. Sure people go 'yay, X-Men' when they save the world from something worse (like, say, the Brood), but that never lasts long. Since Sentinels have existed, the GOVERNMENT has kept them around. What's a mutant suppose to do, try to peacefully co-exist with people who just happen to have a weapon designed specifically to kill you?
Magneto tried to live happily away from humans, and humans went out and didn't let him... so that's off the table. If the choice is being a persecuted minority, or use you god-given gift to take over, which would most people pick? You have to be darn near a saint to willfully choose the latter.
Xavier tried, and ended up going bonkers and almost destroying the universe. Never mind how awful he was to his students. At least with Magneto you KNEW you were a lackey.
I hate to use real life as a metaphor (because I don't intend to make light of it) but do you think if Jewish people in 30s Berlin really could make Golems, they would have tried to chat peacefully with Hitler, or do you think they've have beat the crap out of some Nazis?
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