|
Post by Honeystinger on Oct 20, 2015 21:01:04 GMT -5
There's something I've been pondering since the 1980s; it concerns the deaths of two characters. One was Quincy Harker's teenage daughter Edith in Marvel's Tomb of Dracula, whom her father staked to save her from becoming a vampire after she was abducted and bitten by Dracula.
The other was a young female Air Force officer whose name I forget (Lauren maybe?) in Wonder Woman, around the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths. Steve Trevor tried to save her when she fell into a crevasse, but she lost her grip on the rope and fell to her death.
Marvel and DC handled the two deaths in very different ways. Marvel spent several issues fleshing out Edith's personality before she died. They said on a letters page that they wanted their readers to get to know her, so that her death would mean something to them.
In contrast, DC said they'd deliberately avoided developing the young officer's character because they didn't want their readers to become attached to someone they'd created solely to be killed off.
My question is, which of these two attitudes--Marvel's or DC's--do you agree with more? How should the prelude to a character's death be handled, in your opinion? And why?
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 20, 2015 21:12:55 GMT -5
If I don't have any attachment to the character than their death doesn't resonate at all.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 21:53:08 GMT -5
I always prefer actual characters to plot puppets. Story is about how the conflict impacts characters. If the protagonists are not truly characters, but merely functionaries of the plot, you don't have actual story, you have a plot puppet show, which are exercises in futility soon forgotten because there is nothing to connect them to the audience who reads (or sees them). You might remember an action sequence or a plot twist from them isolated bits of the whole, but in their whole, as a story, they failed and are forgotten.
A character that is not developed who dies is worthy of no more notice than a car that gets wrecked or a building that is leveled. They are scenery whose only purpose is to be torn apart to try to make the characters look interesting.
Edith was a character and her story ended with her death at her father's hands. The other girl was a plot puppet whose sole function was to put Steve Trevor through a wringer possibly to try to make story with him, but that is even debatable. It's telling though, that you can remember Edith's name and not the girl Steve Trevor failed to save. Her name doesn't matter because she was scenery, not a character.
If your editorial policy is to try to prevent your readership from having a reason to connect to your stories, you are doing something wrong. That is the goal of most who attempt to tell stories to an audience-to make that connection between story and audience.
-M
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Oct 20, 2015 22:54:10 GMT -5
Of course the current policy at Marvel is to avoid the hard work of developing a character so that their death will mean something to the reader, but to achieve the same effect by using a character on which someone else has already done the work for you.
|
|
|
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 21, 2015 9:00:33 GMT -5
Either way it is handled, is fine with me. It's the Lazarus epidemic that both Marvel and DC can't find a cure for. *cough*AuntMay*cough*
It's a bigger insult to everyone involved, especially when a character is really fleshed out and used to so well both as their own character and to support other characters. That when a well done, well intended, end to a character's existence, for the sake of a good story, is done and they are just brought back for the sake of $, can really be annoying and off putting. *Cough*AuntMay*Cough*
Sorry. Excuse my congestion. It's allergy season for me. ;-)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2015 13:46:43 GMT -5
Either way it is handled, is fine with me. It's the Lazarus epidemic that both Marvel and DC can't find a cure for. *cough*AuntMay*cough* It's a bigger insult to everyone involved, especially when a character is really fleshed out and used to so well both as their own character and to support other characters. That when a well done, well intended, end to a character's existence, for the sake of a good story, is done and they are just brought back for the sake of $, can really be annoying and off putting. *Cough*AuntMay*Cough* Sorry. Excuse my congestion. It's allergy season for me. ;-) It's a symptom of the neverending story though. If the story never ends, nothing in it can have finality-no matter how many times the hero triumphs, the villain will come back again, no defeat is final, no victory is final, no life can truly end, no death can stick, because it's all one never ending story. If there's no final act, nothing can ever truly be climatic, and there can be no true denouement. Simply put, mainstream shared universe comics are a victim of the serial format, much like soap operas, and as long as you use that format, this kind of thing is going to happen because there is no way to end the story and make those things final. AS long as it is a business and the business is built on IP, they have to keep the IP in play, and as long as they stick to the ongoing serial format there is no way for anything to happen to make any kind of real change stick. It's like complaining the sky is up, it's the nature of the beast. It's what made mainstream comics successful but it's what keeps mainstream comics in an endless cycle of regurgitation and returns to the status quo. -M
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 21, 2015 17:39:36 GMT -5
Either way it is handled, is fine with me. It's the Lazarus epidemic that both Marvel and DC can't find a cure for. *cough*AuntMay*cough* It's a bigger insult to everyone involved, especially when a character is really fleshed out and used to so well both as their own character and to support other characters. That when a well done, well intended, end to a character's existence, for the sake of a good story, is done and they are just brought back for the sake of $, can really be annoying and off putting. *Cough*AuntMay*Cough* Sorry. Excuse my congestion. It's allergy season for me. ;-) But what if they brought her back for the sake of a good story? I tend to lump this into "all stories turn stupid once they are told contiguously for forty years" but as I remember it, the Spider-man writers and editors felt like their Spider-man stories weren't as good without Aunt May in them. Peter Parker needs some family grounding. Or whatever. But the upshot is that Spider-man creators felt that Spider-man stories would be less good without Aunt May in them. Luckily for me, I consider every new creative team a little reboot, so I have no problem accepting the very, very good J. M. Dematties/Mark Bagely death of Aunt May story as "canon" in their continuity, while not canon in the current Dan Slott continuity. And that the J.M. Dematties stories are a little more "true" than the current stuff, which I haven't enjoyed much at all.
|
|
|
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 22, 2015 19:53:27 GMT -5
Either way it is handled, is fine with me. It's the Lazarus epidemic that both Marvel and DC can't find a cure for. *cough*AuntMay*cough* It's a bigger insult to everyone involved, especially when a character is really fleshed out and used to so well both as their own character and to support other characters. That when a well done, well intended, end to a character's existence, for the sake of a good story, is done and they are just brought back for the sake of $, can really be annoying and off putting. *Cough*AuntMay*Cough* Sorry. Excuse my congestion. It's allergy season for me. ;-) It's a symptom of the neverending story though. If the story never ends, nothing in it can have finality-no matter how many times the hero triumphs, the villain will come back again, no defeat is final, no victory is final, no life can truly end, no death can stick, because it's all one never ending story. If there's no final act, nothing can ever truly be climatic, and there can be no true denouement. Simply put, mainstream shared universe comics are a victim of the serial format, much like soap operas, and as long as you use that format, this kind of thing is going to happen because there is no way to end the story and make those things final. AS long as it is a business and the business is built on IP, they have to keep the IP in play, and as long as they stick to the ongoing serial format there is no way for anything to happen to make any kind of real change stick. It's like complaining the sky is up, it's the nature of the beast. It's what made mainstream comics successful but it's what keeps mainstream comics in an endless cycle of regurgitation and returns to the status quo. -M Either way it is handled, is fine with me. It's the Lazarus epidemic that both Marvel and DC can't find a cure for. *cough*AuntMay*cough* It's a bigger insult to everyone involved, especially when a character is really fleshed out and used to so well both as their own character and to support other characters. That when a well done, well intended, end to a character's existence, for the sake of a good story, is done and they are just brought back for the sake of $, can really be annoying and off putting. *Cough*AuntMay*Cough* Sorry. Excuse my congestion. It's allergy season for me. ;-) But what if they brought her back for the sake of a good story? I tend to lump this into "all stories turn stupid once they are told contiguously for forty years" but as I remember it, the Spider-man writers and editors felt like their Spider-man stories weren't as good without Aunt May in them. Peter Parker needs some family grounding. Or whatever. But the upshot is that Spider-man creators felt that Spider-man stories would be less good without Aunt May in them. Luckily for me, I consider every new creative team a little reboot, so I have no problem accepting the very, very good J. M. Dematties/Mark Bagely death of Aunt May story as "canon" in their continuity, while not canon in the current Dan Slott continuity. And that the J.M. Dematties stories are a little more "true" than the current stuff, which I haven't enjoyed much at all. I understand why and how it happens as in nothing is permenant because neither publishers despite writers wanting to do good stories want their cash flow to end. It's also probably my burn out with Marvel/DC superhero comics.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 20:38:46 GMT -5
It's a symptom of the neverending story though. If the story never ends, nothing in it can have finality-no matter how many times the hero triumphs, the villain will come back again, no defeat is final, no victory is final, no life can truly end, no death can stick, because it's all one never ending story. If there's no final act, nothing can ever truly be climatic, and there can be no true denouement. Simply put, mainstream shared universe comics are a victim of the serial format, much like soap operas, and as long as you use that format, this kind of thing is going to happen because there is no way to end the story and make those things final. AS long as it is a business and the business is built on IP, they have to keep the IP in play, and as long as they stick to the ongoing serial format there is no way for anything to happen to make any kind of real change stick. It's like complaining the sky is up, it's the nature of the beast. It's what made mainstream comics successful but it's what keeps mainstream comics in an endless cycle of regurgitation and returns to the status quo. -M But what if they brought her back for the sake of a good story? I tend to lump this into "all stories turn stupid once they are told contiguously for forty years" but as I remember it, the Spider-man writers and editors felt like their Spider-man stories weren't as good without Aunt May in them. Peter Parker needs some family grounding. Or whatever. But the upshot is that Spider-man creators felt that Spider-man stories would be less good without Aunt May in them. Luckily for me, I consider every new creative team a little reboot, so I have no problem accepting the very, very good J. M. Dematties/Mark Bagely death of Aunt May story as "canon" in their continuity, while not canon in the current Dan Slott continuity. And that the J.M. Dematties stories are a little more "true" than the current stuff, which I haven't enjoyed much at all. I understand why and how it happens as in nothing is permenant because neither publishers despite writers wanting to do good stories want their cash flow to end. It's also probably my burn out with Marvel/DC superhero comics. The other part of the equation is long term fans who resist any long-term change to the status quo-they like shock stories but they want everything put back together before it's all said and done. Kill of Batman, replace him, we'll buy the heck out of it, but at the end of the day it better be Bruce Wayne back under the cowl again of the fans revolt. As much as these fans may say otherwise, it's the nature of the beast known as fandom that prevents any true change taking effect. If publishers could make long term changes and still sell the books, they would, but they can't because the customer base doesn't want real change. You can point a finger at the publishers, but as the saying goes, there are three more pointed back at the fandom base. For every one who gets sick of the same old same old and moves on, there are 10 who stick around wanting the same old same old and those 10 would leave if it changed. So yes, publishers want the money, but they know the money form their customer sis only there as long as that status quo is retained or returned to regularly. IF there was money to be made other ways, it would be. It's the buyers driving the persistence of the status quo, not the suppliers. -M
|
|
|
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 22, 2015 21:05:38 GMT -5
I understand that two. Maybe not 20 years ago when Aunt May died and it didn't long for that to be retroactively ignored. But 20 years of internet has taught me a lot about our fan base and you'll never hear me argue against their control of the medium to a degree. And I'll never say I'm mad at a corporation for doing what is profitable for them. This whole country is based on a monetary system.
I have though, outside Marvel Knights and Ultimate not read 616 Spider-Man. I don't care to. (Though the Clone Saga as a whole helped too.) I seriously would not care if Bruce wasn't Batman or Aunt May died or Wolverine permenantly lost his adamantium. As long as it stuck. And I know how hard that is in serials. But at some point I'd like a writer's time on a title to end like a novel. New ideas are good and I'm open to that. If you want Bruce forever Batmam then publish an anthology like LOTDK and keep him dead in another continuity title.
Again it's why I'm burned out on superheroes but glad there is more to comics than superheroes.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 23, 2015 7:16:58 GMT -5
I don't really by that they HAVE to resurrect characters to tell good stories/protect the IP. Manga kill people off for good all the time, and yet they manage to continue to keep such characters relevant. Full Metal Alchemist is the best example of this. A major character get killed off around, oh, episode 10 or 11 of the 64 episode series. Yet he's still a main supporting character? How? They refer to the death often, the investigation of said death is a major plot point, and there are a couple flashback episodes.
If they can do it in Japan, they can do it in the MU. The problem is it takes planning and good continuity, both of which Marvel has dumped for the 'cool pitch' from a hot writer.
|
|
|
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 23, 2015 8:08:28 GMT -5
Maybe I need to check out some manga from the library. I've watched a lot of anime in the 90's, but manga no, outside of Oh My Goddess!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2015 10:32:23 GMT -5
I don't really by that they HAVE to resurrect characters to tell good stories/protect the IP. Manga kill people off for good all the time, and yet they manage to continue to keep such characters relevant. Full Metal Alchemist is the best example of this. A major character get killed off around, oh, episode 10 or 11 of the 64 episode series. Yet he's still a main supporting character? How? They refer to the death often, the investigation of said death is a major plot point, and there are a couple flashback episodes. If they can do it in Japan, they can do it in the MU. The problem is it takes planning and good continuity, both of which Marvel has dumped for the 'cool pitch' from a hot writer. The expectations and the culture of the Japanese consumer is far different than that of the American audience/consumer. It is the audience that determines what is acceptable/expected from the storyteller in this instance, not the ability of the storytellers. I'm sure Marvel, DC or whoever could create great stories of character death with lasting impact, but the America buying audience wouldn't keep buying it so the stories would have no audience and thus not be profitable for those companies. The problem here is not the production end, it is the buying habits of the American (and those international fans of America comics) comic buying public and their stranglehold on the bottom line of the publishers that prevents any other paradigm of storytelling in shared universe super-hero comics. It's appropriate you started with I don't buy it, because that's what comic fans say when comic publishers do things they don't like and change things long term, they don't buy it. They are not the same audience as anime/manga fans (though there is some small overlap in the Venn diagram) and they have different experiences and expectations than those fans and are much more conservative in their buying habits and what they will accept. Until the audience changes (or the publishers decide to forsake that audience to try to capture a different and/or bigger one which at this point is likely business suicide) the ability to tell certain types of stories and turn a profit with them is not viable in the American market. -M
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 23, 2015 12:47:55 GMT -5
I don't think you can say that definitively, since they've never tried. I'd point to the massive popularity of Manga in the United States as proof that fans ARE happy to read about real deaths that have lasting impact... never mind Game of Thrones I agree that it's a totally different model, but there's no reason it couldn't work.. it just hasn't been tried. I don't even think it's that big of a risk, considering the track record. I also think the overlap between Manga fans and American comic fans is HUGE. Perhaps not among this board, but fans of my daughter's generation (she's 15) and, I suspect, the one before it, are happy to read whatever they like, regardless of the source. It's the style and story they care about. I do think alot of the problem is the fact that Marvel and DC are now owned by conglomerates taht see Comics as a testing ground for IP at best... I think that's why we're getting so many 'it's a good pitch' series about characters no one really cares about.. it's all about finding the next Walking Dead.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 23, 2015 12:51:08 GMT -5
Maybe I need to check out some manga from the library. I've watched a lot of anime in the 90's, but manga no, outside of Oh My Goddess! Full Metal Alchemist is a good one to start I think it's 28 volumes in Manga (I've only read a couple...mostly I've watched the anime). If you like Oh My Goddess, Fairy Tail will probably be up your alley, though that one is kinda endless. it's not my thing, but my daughter and her posse are big fans. There's also Excel Saga.. that's an older one, but might godo for you as well.
|
|