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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 25, 2016 21:20:00 GMT -5
That's when it started in-canon, but Dark Knight Returns had already set the stage. Even before that - Batman was a feudin' and a fussin' with the rest of the JLA, left the team to start the Outsiders, and there was definitely friction when Bats and Supes co-startted in World's Finest in the early '80s.
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Post by chadwilliam on Feb 25, 2016 22:40:46 GMT -5
That's when it started in-canon, but Dark Knight Returns had already set the stage. Even before that - Batman was a feudin' and a fussin' with the rest of the JLA, left the team to start the Outsiders, and there was definitely friction when Bats and Supes co-startted in World's Finest in the early '80s.
I know that in a one page 'Letter from the Team' that appeared at the back of Batman and the Outsiders 1, it was explained that Jim Starlin's interest in establishing animosity between Superman and Batman was influenced to an extent by conversations he had had with Frank Miller. Of course, it was probably more 'reinforced' than 'influenced' since Starlin never really struck me as a guy who understood or liked Superman (I'm basing this on the work he did for DC Comics Presents) but it's interesting to note that Miller was screwing around with Batman a few years prior to Dark Knight.
I also thought that while their "feud" was referenced in World's Finest, issue 300 of that series had them making up.
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Post by dupersuper on Feb 25, 2016 23:27:14 GMT -5
Even before that - Batman was a feudin' and a fussin' with the rest of the JLA, left the team to start the Outsiders, and there was definitely friction when Bats and Supes co-startted in World's Finest in the early '80s.
I know that in a one page 'Letter from the Team' that appeared at the back of Batman and the Outsiders 1, it was explained that Jim Starlin's interest in establishing animosity between Superman and Batman was influenced to an extent by conversations he had had with Frank Miller. Of course, it was probably more 'reinforced' than 'influenced' since Starlin never really struck me as a guy who understood or liked Superman (I'm basing this on the work he did for DC Comics Presents) but it's interesting to note that Miller was screwing around with Batman a few years prior to Dark Knight.
I also thought that while their "feud" was referenced in World's Finest, issue 300 of that series had them making up.
I liked Starlins Superman in Cosmic Odyssey, The Weird and Hardcore Station well enough...
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Post by chadwilliam on Feb 25, 2016 23:52:46 GMT -5
I know that in a one page 'Letter from the Team' that appeared at the back of Batman and the Outsiders 1, it was explained that Jim Starlin's interest in establishing animosity between Superman and Batman was influenced to an extent by conversations he had had with Frank Miller. Of course, it was probably more 'reinforced' than 'influenced' since Starlin never really struck me as a guy who understood or liked Superman (I'm basing this on the work he did for DC Comics Presents) but it's interesting to note that Miller was screwing around with Batman a few years prior to Dark Knight.
I also thought that while their "feud" was referenced in World's Finest, issue 300 of that series had them making up.
I liked Starlins Superman in Cosmic Odyssey, The Weird and Hardcore Station well enough...
If I remember correctly, Starlin had a bad guy evade Superman by making sure to hide directly beneath his feet so that when the Man of Steel x-rayed his surroundings, he completely overlooked the villain. Not sure if he fared any better in those other titles, but I do know that when Batman was around, Superman was usually made out to be the lackey of the government (Batman and the Outsiders, Death in the Family, Cosmic Odyssey).
Come to think of it, Starlin's approach to Superman wasn't entirely different to his attitude towards Robin - he didn't like the character, so he intentionally set out to write him as out of character and unlikable as possible as a means by which he could petulantly vent about said character.
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Post by dupersuper on Feb 26, 2016 0:03:33 GMT -5
It was The Weird, not a "bad guy", and I liked it took the better part of the issue for him to just give Supes the slip while he owned the JL earlier (including Bats, J'onn, Doctor Fate, Captain Atom, Black Canary, Guy 'GL' Gardner...).
I'd hardly call being asked to contact the heroes Lonar requested in CO as being a lackey, and his sequences with Orion were great.
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Post by realjla on Feb 26, 2016 1:38:46 GMT -5
I liked Starlins Superman in Cosmic Odyssey, The Weird and Hardcore Station well enough...
If I remember correctly, Starlin had a bad guy evade Superman by making sure to hide directly beneath his feet so that when the Man of Steel x-rayed his surroundings, he completely overlooked the villain. Not sure if he fared any better in those other titles, but I do know that when Batman was around, Superman was usually made out to be the lackey of the government (Batman and the Outsiders, Death in the Family, Cosmic Odyssey).
Come to think of it, Starlin's approach to Superman wasn't entirely different to his attitude towards Robin - he didn't like the character, so he intentionally set out to write him as out of character and unlikable as possible as a means by which he could petulantly vent about said character.
My first experience with 'Starlin Superman' was the DC Comics Presents 'trilogy' #s 27-29, when he first encounters Mongul, and seemingly every other line is a variation of... "I'm going to kick Mongul's butt, because I'M SUPERMAN!" (Mongul kicks Superman's butt instead) "But I'M supposed to kick Mongul's butt because I'M SUPERMAN!', etc... (For 'Superman', read 'Charlie Brown'. For 'Mongul's butt', read 'the football.')
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2016 1:46:25 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, Starlin had a bad guy evade Superman by making sure to hide directly beneath his feet so that when the Man of Steel x-rayed his surroundings, he completely overlooked the villain. Not sure if he fared any better in those other titles, but I do know that when Batman was around, Superman was usually made out to be the lackey of the government (Batman and the Outsiders, Death in the Family, Cosmic Odyssey).
Come to think of it, Starlin's approach to Superman wasn't entirely different to his attitude towards Robin - he didn't like the character, so he intentionally set out to write him as out of character and unlikable as possible as a means by which he could petulantly vent about said character.
My first experience with 'Starlin Superman' was the DC Comics Presents 'trilogy' #s 27-29, when he first encounters Mongul, and seemingly every other line is a variation of... "I'm going to kick Mongul's butt, because I'M SUPERMAN!" (Mongul kicks Superman's butt instead) "But I'M supposed to kick Mongul's butt because I'M SUPERMAN!', etc... (For 'Superman', read 'Charlie Brown'. For 'Mongul's butt', read 'the football.') Except Starlin was only the penciller on those issues, Len Wein was the writer so any dialogue, characterization or plot points as to how Superman was handled in the DC Presents issues are not Starlin's Superman, but Wein's. -M
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Post by realjla on Feb 26, 2016 1:56:03 GMT -5
I stand corrected...but that makes those stories even worse than I thought. Wein wrote Superman in his own book for a while, but never made him sound so insufferable. Overconfident? Well, yeah, when he wrote Justice League, but the heroes were always getting knocked around when they tried to act on their own, without 'teamwork'. For a (mostly) 'two hero' team-up book, the regular character should not come off as full of himself as Superman does in those stories. In # 229, the Spectre 'cures' Superman of his misconceptions, which he should never have had in the first place. This is why I don't like the 'brawn over brains' approach to writing Superman.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 26, 2016 5:53:14 GMT -5
I stand corrected...but that makes those stories even worse than I thought. Wein wrote Superman in his own book for a while, but never made him sound so insufferable. Overconfident? Well, yeah, when he wrote Justice League, but the heroes were always getting knocked around when they tried to act on their own, without 'teamwork'. For a (mostly) 'two hero' team-up book, the regular character should not come off as full of himself as Superman does in those stories. In # 229, the Spectre 'cures' Superman of his misconceptions, which he should never have had in the first place. This is why I don't like the 'brawn over brains' approach to writing Superman. The point of that 3 issue arc was that Superman had to be taken down a peg. Spectre showed him that he couldn't win all the time and prevented him from rescuing Supergirl in #29.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 26, 2016 5:58:44 GMT -5
I never warmed up to Doctor Strange or any magic based characters. Where does their power come from and does it get used up? At least other characters have limits to their power( Torch's flame wears down, Batman can get tired).
Said it, man.
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 26, 2016 8:30:04 GMT -5
Why, oh why must we get repeated servings of the utterly boring characters that are Mystique and the Wrecker? I mean, Mystique is in almost every other recent X-Men comics! And she's boring! Come on, X-people, put her away for good in a prison cell at the other end of the galaxy!
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Post by The Cheat on Feb 26, 2016 16:33:03 GMT -5
I never warmed up to Doctor Strange or any magic based characters. Where does their power come from and does it get used up? At least other characters have limits to their power( Torch's flame wears down, Batman can get tired). This very point is currently being touched on in Aaron's run.
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Post by Prince Hal on Feb 26, 2016 17:00:02 GMT -5
Never thought much of Flash's Rogues' Gallery. Grodd, okay. He could be dangerous, I guess. But the Pied Piper? The Top? Come on.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Feb 26, 2016 18:08:52 GMT -5
Never thought much of Flash's Rogues' Gallery. Grodd, okay. He could be dangerous, I guess. A giant, intelligent, telepathic gorilla could be dangerous, Hal? You been lifting?
Captain Cold. Weather Wizard. Professor Zoom. Doctor Alchemy. Mirror Master. Think again, pal.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 26, 2016 18:28:51 GMT -5
Never thought much of Flash's Rogues' Gallery. Grodd, okay. He could be dangerous, I guess. But the Pied Piper? The Top? Come on. They seem goofy although they were created in a simpler time. Those powers they have lends itself to more murderous applications but I don't recall them ever killing anyone in the First Flash run. Now the second Flash run with Wally, has them all pretty hardcore.
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