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Post by MDG on Nov 15, 2023 10:36:12 GMT -5
I don't see how Star Wars is in any worse hands. Lucas only directed three somewhat interesting films in his career. To that you can add two stories that were made in to scripts and films by others. Star Wars has always been a mediocre property. There. I said it. I agree with you, but obviously it clicks with a lot of people. My oldest was born a little bit after the original trilogy, but got way into it when the Phantom Menace came out with absolutely no encouragement. Ditto his son, years later.
But I've really soured on the whole "universe" concept.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 15, 2023 10:47:54 GMT -5
I don't see how Star Wars is in any worse hands. Lucas only directed three somewhat interesting films in his career. To that you can add two stories that were made in to scripts and films by others. Star Wars has always been a mediocre property. There. I said it. I agree with you, but obviously it clicks with a lot of people. My oldest was born a little bit after the original trilogy, but got way into it when the Phantom Menace came out with absolutely no encouragement. Ditto his son, years later.
But I've really soured on the whole "universe" concept.
I'll cop that they resonate with people and that I don't really understand it. I will just always maintain that it's nothing particularly special and it's popularity is likely more despite Lucas than because of him.
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Post by tarkintino on Nov 15, 2023 13:32:53 GMT -5
I don't see how Star Wars is in any worse hands. Lucas only directed three somewhat interesting films in his career. To that you can add two stories that were made in to scripts and films by others. Star Wars has always been a mediocre property. There. I said it. Oh, Slam...Slam...Slaaaam!
Lucas had been one of the few, true visionaries in film history who lived up to the title and had most of the industry chasing after him to imitate (directly or indirectly). That cannot be said of the Disney-era Star Wars, where its been wall-to-wall fanservice dreck (e.g., anything associated with idiots in helmets with jet packs), as that's the only way to draw in the most die-hard of fans who like films or TV shows based on minor characters, or characters who were never that important to the overall "Skywalker saga"--the SW property's reason to be. Add characters who can do no wrong, or fail while on the journey (Rey in the Disney Sequel Trilogy), and the utter lack of storytelling skill that would make most video game plots seem complex and creatively satisfying by comparison, and you have a collection of productions that have not resonated (in the popular cultural sense), and are the very essence of disposable "entertainment". Disney/LFL--or any of the EU content creators have never had a day like Lucas at his best, and its doubtful they ever will, even when gifted an IP like Star Wars.
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Post by Rags on Nov 15, 2023 13:53:38 GMT -5
OMGosh....someone slabbed a digest. I need a drink after this one....
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Nov 15, 2023 15:22:19 GMT -5
This is the greatest work George Lucas has ever or will ever be associated with.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,085
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Post by Confessor on Nov 15, 2023 15:29:24 GMT -5
Star Wars just needs more rabbits.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 15, 2023 15:31:22 GMT -5
I don't see how Star Wars is in any worse hands. Lucas only directed three somewhat interesting films in his career. To that you can add two stories that were made in to scripts and films by others. Star Wars has always been a mediocre property. There. I said it. Oh, Slam...Slam...Slaaaam!
Lucas had been one of the few, true visionaries in film history who lived up to the title and had most of the industry chasing after him to imitate (directly or indirectly). That cannot be said of the Disney-era Star Wars, where its been wall-to-wall fanservice dreck (e.g., anything associated with idiots in helmets with jet packs), as that's the only way to draw in the most die-hard of fans who like films or TV shows based on minor characters, or characters who were never that important to the overall "Skywalker saga"--the SW property's reason to be. Add characters who can do no wrong, or fail while on the journey (Rey in the Disney Sequel Trilogy), and the utter lack of storytelling skill that would make most video game plots seem complex and creatively satisfying by comparison, and you have a collection of productions that have not resonated (in the popular cultural sense), and are the very essence of disposable "entertainment". Disney/LFL--or any of the EU content creators have never had a day like Lucas at his best, and its doubtful they ever will, even when gifted an IP like Star Wars.
While I think The Mandalorian was fun and that Rogue One was right up there with the original trilogy, I agree with your assessment of Lucas's vision. He took all that the young at heart loved in old SF serials, cow-boy movies and samurai films, packaged it in a way that looked brand new and changed film-making for the duration. He might not have been a brilliant director (something he basically acknowledged by not directing ESB or RotJ), but he was a visionary. Disney has handled the franchise as one would expect. As a commodity.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 15, 2023 15:35:29 GMT -5
This is the greatest work George Lucas has ever or will ever be associated with. That certainly more entertaining than all three prequels combined.
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Post by impulse on Nov 15, 2023 16:46:00 GMT -5
Mediocre would be a big improvement over the last two trilogies.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 15, 2023 16:56:29 GMT -5
I disagree about the visionary part of it. I think he had a good visual style, but really only had two good stories in him, as a filmmaker. THX 1138 is a visual feast, but is terribly obtuse storytelling, too indebted to the French New Wave, in style, but lacking substance. It is the one film I thought was improved by tinkering, as he was able to expand the scope of the underground city. It didn't really do anything to the story, as there wasn't really one, apart from THX escaping the city to find the outside world.
American Graffiti is a great coming of age story and is extremely personal to Lucas and his clearest story, and not coincidentally, the best acted of those he actually directed. It helped that he had some seasoned young actors and some damn good ones, all around.
Star Wars is Lucas throwing in everything he loved in adventure, with modern effects. It is a great whiz-bangs swashbuckling story, centered around old fairy tale structures. It isn't especially deep, but it is fun, exciting and delivers adventure. It also doesn't answer a lot of questions, but throws out some background detail that fired the imagination of the young fans who saw it as the most exciting film to come along. I was 11, when it hit theaters and that is the perfect age. I had seen ray Harryhausen stuff, but not the old serials and not many swashbucklers, yet. Just enough to recognize the form, plus the Western tropes and the war film dogfighting. It ticked all of my boxes for exciting stories. The Marvel comics, though, did more to expand the possibilities of it than Empire did. Empire had a better script and a better director, from a character and acting standpoint and ILM was now experienced enough to deliver the visuals. It is a better film, from a story and character point, but doesn't quite have the same thrills as Star Wars, certainly not in a way that felt wholly new (even if they weren't). Jedi seemed more a rehash of what went before and an awkward resolution to the war. It didn't really feel like it should be the final battle in things, which is one of the things I liked about Zahn's novels, as they took that premise and showed that the structure of the Empire wouldn't totally collapse, especially as Star Wars demonstrated that the regional governors were fairly autonomous.
Star Wars was just the right vessel for repackaging old adventure material, in a new way and was a great gateway to exploring that older material, if you had a mind to do so. I don't get the worship of things, especially the Jedi religion nonsense; but, then, as an atheist, I can extend that to other belief systems. It is no worse an idea than many out there.
It didn't take much to realize that Lucas was very poor at directing actors and that his strength was in the visuals and in building and running an organization to support his films. In the end, I think he proved a better producer and studio head than he did a director.
His peers talk of him being the best; but, given their own middling successes, I think you have to take that with a grain of salt. Milius was a better writer, even if he wasn't the stylist that George was. Walter Hill was a better storyteller, but tended to falter unless he was pretty much redoing an old story. Spielberg was a much better director, all around, but especially with actors and getting performances out of them. Lucas was better technically and was more at home working with the camera. In many ways, I think the others were more in awe of his technical skill and business acumen, rather than his directing skills.
Personally, I rate Star Wars as two great films, one good one and the rest as, at best, okay. I don't really count the post-Lucas stuff as being the same thing. Of that, Rogue One and some of the Mandalorian are the only things that I have really enjoyed (Mandalorian gets repetitive, though I only watched the first season and part of the second). I haven't watched the other Disney+ material. The Clone Wars animated stuff looked nice, but was just endless action, without much plot and wore thin after two episodes. I've even tried skipping to the later segments and still end up bored 5 minutes into it. I didn't bother with the CGI animated stuff. Even Rogue One, which I mostly like, has some big flaws, like the disjointed running around, in the middle and the need to have some kind of pseudo-Jedi, rather than let it be just a group of soldiers trying to get their hands on the plans, to try to destroy the Death Star. The end battle is exciting, but, in trying to make it lead into Star Wars, it so undercuts the fight in it,, if you watch in that sequence. At least you didn't find out that someone was a second cousin to Luke, or something.
Solo I hated, with a passion, especially making him a ground pounder, instead of an Imperial Naval officer, as was always stated. It was a bad caper film, a bad military film, and just a dull film. I couldn't see that Han ending up as the one we meet in the cantina, in Star Wars.
That's part of why I prefer Alan Dean Foster and Archie Goodwin. They took what Star Wars gave you and built exciting and interesting tales with those characters, expanding things, without trying to make it seem like it was supposed to be high literature or great cinema. it was just damn good storytelling, within that world, without trying to jerry-rig a saga or find some deeper theme. I'd have much rather seen a figure like Baron Tagge in Empire and Jedi, and someone like Valance, rather than Boba Fett. Valance had a personality and Tagge made a unique villain, who hated both the rebels and Vader. It also set up the idea of competing powers within the Empire, which is generally true under any dictatorship.
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Post by kirby101 on Nov 15, 2023 17:23:26 GMT -5
Just as a director, I agree Lucas might not be a visionary. Not like his buddies Spielberg and Coppola. But as a producer and movie maker, he unquestionably was. He literally changed how movies are made. If you can, watch the Disney+ docu-series on Industrial Light and Magic. Lucas was the driving force.
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Post by Rob Allen on Nov 15, 2023 18:39:34 GMT -5
I've never gotten over my disappointment about the made-up word "Jedi". I thought they were saying "Jet-Eye Knights". Still sounds more intriguing to me that way.
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Post by commond on Nov 15, 2023 18:50:06 GMT -5
Lucas famously hated directing, which is why he quit doing it. The Star Wars experience was so stressful for him that he began suffering chest pains. He thought he was having a heart attack, but was diagnosed as suffering from acute stress. Lucas' first love was editing. That's why he'd shoot with a master take and multiple camera set ups, so he could pull it altogether in the editing suite. It's also how he exerted his influence over the films that he worked on as a producer, as he was heavily involved in post-production and would sit in on the editing suite.
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Post by Batflunkie on Nov 15, 2023 19:13:22 GMT -5
I've never gotten over my disappointment about the made-up word "Jedi". I thought they were saying "Jet-Eye Knights". Still sounds more intriguing to me that way. They also couldn't pronounce Falcon right in the first movie either, it just sounds like "Fulcon". Also, for the longest time, when Leia is telling Tarkin and Vader where the rebel spies are, I thought she was mispronouncing Tatooine
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Post by tarkintino on Nov 15, 2023 19:52:35 GMT -5
Just as a director, I agree Lucas might not be a visionary. Not like his buddies Spielberg and Coppola. But as a producer and movie maker, he unquestionably was. He literally changed how movies are made. If you can, watch the Disney+ docu-series on Industrial Light and Magic. Lucas was the driving force. The term visionary (as I employed it in reference to Lucas) was not limited to the job of a director, but his lightning-in-a-bottle combination of writer (both screenwriting and visual), knowing how to worldbuild like few others in film history, and being a student of culture to the degree he was able to tap into the interests of millions even before they were aware of their own interest in a subject. Pound for pound, he has created landmark work across several genres (starting with THX-1138)--which is far different than a filmmaker merely working on projects from different genres.
Then, there's modern-day Star Wars: if one does not believe the Disney Star Wars productions represent a talent desert, all one needs to do is compare it all to its 1977-83 forebears, and the difference in creation, inspiration and execution is beyond glaring. The Prequels were not great, but even they are infinitely more enjoyable / watchable than the fanservice Mandalorian, the unnecessary Rogue One (really, no one needed to know a story fleshed out from what we knew about "rebel spies" from the opening crawl of 1977's Star Wars), the pointless Kenobi, and most especially, the awful Sequel trilogy.
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