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Post by tonebone on Dec 21, 2023 10:07:51 GMT -5
Still doesn't mean anyone is entitled to see it. I can't even count the number of video/computer game projects I have worked on, sometimes almost to completion, that never made it to the public. That's just the way it goes. It wasn't my money that paid for them, so I can't even show them to anyone. Just the occupational hazard of working on projects for an employer who holds all the cards and money. And I’m sure you were always perfectly happy with it! It’s wonderful that you’re so content and happy that those people have complete control over so many of your artistic efforts! It must be nice to be independently wealthy and not to have to depend on a large company in order to feed your family. I am not so fortunate. It truly sucks to see something not finished or released, but I was happy to survive, and be paid, and ultimately don't give a shit what happens to the product when someone pulls the plug. Would it be nice to show it to my family? Sure. But those of us who work in this environment are well accustomed to working under NDAs, and not being able to talk about what we're doing, anyway. Being part of a massive team making a corporatized product is not as glamourous and soul-fulfilling as you think. When one project is done, or ended, you move on to the next. I'm sure some of the people who worked on Batgirl were disappointed, particularly the top tier (actors, directors, etc.) but the best boy and lead grip are not suffering any mental anguish, I assure you.
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Post by tonebone on Dec 21, 2023 10:10:54 GMT -5
Precisely. Agreed. The majority of people who worked on a film or TV series were paid for their labor, which is the central expectation in the employer/employee relationship. Whether or not a project is released has no bearing on that contract which guaranteed the worker would be paid for services rendered. The argument that somehow those who worked on a project are somehow hurt /shortchanged by a product never seeing release just sounds like cover for the fan to still make an argument laced in entitlement. *shrugs* I get that if you are paid for the work you did, the contract has been fulfilled. However, if the final product is never released, the possibility certainly does exist that he or she is hurt /shortchanged because no potential future employer can see what the worker did, how well it was done and so forth. Claiming that you did fine work on the script or the CGI or the costumes or the fight choreography for "Ratgirl" doesn't mean bupkis if you can't show it as proof. I have never, when interviewing prospective team members, asked for "proof" or asked to see the products they say they have worked on. NDAs prevent much of the discussion of aborted projects, anyway. It's just part of showbiz, and no one bats an eye. Does an accountant bring along to the interview the books of some company to prove that he did them?
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Post by Prince Hal on Dec 21, 2023 10:50:43 GMT -5
I get that if you are paid for the work you did, the contract has been fulfilled. However, if the final product is never released, the possibility certainly does exist that he or she is hurt /shortchanged because no potential future employer can see what the worker did, how well it was done and so forth. Claiming that you did fine work on the script or the CGI or the costumes or the fight choreography for "Ratgirl" doesn't mean bupkis if you can't show it as proof. I have never, when interviewing prospective team members, asked for "proof" or asked to see the products they say they have worked on. NDAs prevent much of the discussion of aborted projects, anyway. It's just part of showbiz, and no one bats an eye. Does an accountant bring along to the interview the books of some company to prove that he did them? Apples and oranges to compare an accountant with someone working in the entertainment field. But then agin, who knows, in a letter of reference, the employer for whom he or she had worked might well give some details of the specific ways in which the accountant might have been a help to the firm. And sure, in the entertainment world, a person can present a letter of recommendation from the folks in charge, I guess. All I'm saying is that if the movie or project had been successful, or even released, the the folks way down the production line would at least be able to point to what they'd done as demonstrations of their talent and skill. Please note, I never said they expect it, demand it, feel entitled to it, don't understand the hard facts of the industry in which they work. But then, as someone experienced in this profession, you obviously know better, even to how the grips and the best boy feel. Then again, they're not the ones working on the creative end of a production, and I thought that's the group to which we were referring. I am curious, though, how you can determine if someone has the skills you'll need for your team if you have no idea of what they're capable of doing. Do you have them do a test, demonstration, a dry run?
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Post by impulse on Dec 21, 2023 11:14:21 GMT -5
I've honestly lost sight of what the point the people defending the megacorps is supposed to be. People keep throwing around the word entitled when no one is saying or acting that way. If you are suggesting fans have no right to feel disappointed when a project they were looking forward and that was promoted to them to was cancelled, particularly when the corps are the ones who created the anticipation in the first place, then I don't see how we will ever agree. But nobody here is saying they are owed a movie, so this argument feels disingenuous or at least incorrectly applied.
I think the corporate apologetics are a bit weird and are being conflated with the creative type deciding not to release something at their discretion. It's a corporation's right to do that, too, but I think it's more distasteful when the suits and bean counters pull a project to cash in on a tax break for the already well paid executive staff rather than a creator not releasing it for whatever reason. It's their right, but it feels a little slimy.
I also disagree on the unrealistic expectations comment. Not overall, because absolutely there is some risk until something is in your hand, of course, but I don't think that once a movie has gotten to the point where it's been announced, advertised, presented at panels at comic cons and is well through filming and most of post that it is unrealistic to expect it will come out at some point. It's not 100% guaranteed in black and white, but nothing is.
And yes, while it can and does happen, that's a lot of reel content VFX artists, animators, riggers, lighting folks, Foley engineers, etc do not get to use. So there is an impact on folks when things are pulled.
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Post by Prince Hal on Dec 21, 2023 11:32:55 GMT -5
I've honestly lost sight of what point the people defending the megacorps is supposed to be. People keep throwing around the word entitled when no one is saying or acting that way. If you are suggesting fans have no right to feel disappointed when a project they were looking forward and that was promoted to them to was cancelled, particularly when the corps are the ones who created the anticipation in the first place, then I don't see how we will ever agree. But nobody here is saying they are owed a movie, so this argument feels disingenuous or at least incorrectly applied. I think the corporate apologetics are a bit weird and are being conflated with the creative type deciding not to release something at their discretion. It's a corporation's right to do that, too, but I think it's more distasteful when the suits and bean counters pull a project to cash in on a tax break for the already well paid executive staff rather than a creator not releasing it for whatever reason. It's their right, but it feels a little slimy. I also disagree on the unrealistic expectations comment. Not overall, because absolutely there is some risk until something is in your hand, of course, but I don't think that once a movie has gotten to the point where it's been announced, advertised, presented at panels at comic cons and is well through filming and most of post that it is unrealistic to expect it will come out at some point. It's not 100% guaranteed in black and white, but nothing is. And yes, while it can and does happen, that's a lot of reel content VFX artists, animators, riggers, lighting folks, Foley engineers, etc do not get to use. So there is an impact on folks when things are pulled. All that.
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Dec 21, 2023 11:54:43 GMT -5
I've honestly lost sight of what point the people defending the megacorps is supposed to be. People keep throwing around the word entitled when no one is saying or acting that way. If you are suggesting fans have no right to feel disappointed when a project they were looking forward and that was promoted to them to was cancelled, particularly when the corps are the ones who created the anticipation in the first place, then I don't see how we will ever agree. But nobody here is saying they are owed a movie, so this argument feels disingenuous or at least incorrectly applied. I think the corporate apologetics are a bit weird and are being conflated with the creative type deciding not to release something at their discretion. It's a corporation's right to do that, too, but I think it's more distasteful when the suits and bean counters pull a project to cash in on a tax break for the already well paid executive staff rather than a creator not releasing it for whatever reason. It's their right, but it feels a little slimy. I also disagree on the unrealistic expectations comment. Not overall, because absolutely there is some risk until something is in your hand, of course, but I don't think that once a movie has gotten to the point where it's been announced, advertised, presented at panels at comic cons and is well through filming and most of post that it is unrealistic to expect it will come out at some point. It's not 100% guaranteed in black and white, but nothing is. And yes, while it can and does happen, that's a lot of reel content VFX artists, animators, riggers, lighting folks, Foley engineers, etc do not get to use. So there is an impact on folks when things are pulled. More creative projects that are started/greenlit/even competed never see release than those that do. All are beyond fans/consumer control, most are beyond the creators control. Managing expectations is however, 100% within your control. In every aspect of life. Most people don't want to have to though. They want things to happen the way they want them to and expect the word to accommodate them. The world doesn't work that way. A kid gets 100 G.I. Joe toys on Christmas morning but spends him time complaining the 1 he wanted wasn't among them so it's a horrible Christmas. A comics fan has literally hundreds of comic book related movie and TV shows to watch and enjoy but spends their time complaining the industry sucks and is unfair because 1 didn't get released or 1 didn't meet their expectations of quality so the golden age of comic movies & TV must be over and it all sucks and the people making it are terrible people. This is the animus I don't get. This is why a lot of the complaining to me comes across as feeling like entitlement, selfishness and such. If a few missteps or one whiff by people providing a plethora of material ruins everything for you and sours your enjoyment of the whole, then the problem is with you, not with others. Yes, we all feel disappointment when things we were hoping for don't happen. Life is full of disappointments. How you react to those disappointment, how you cope with them is your responsibility and not anybody's fault to point fingers at. It absolutely sucks when it happens, but the megacorps are going to do what they will regardless, and unless you are willing to commit a lot of time, money, effort, and sacrifice effecting real change in the world as it functions, that is never going to change. That's not to defend their choices, but it is the way the world works and no amount of denial or wishful thinking is going to change that. It leaves each person with a choice-how am I going to react to that? Am I going to let it ruin my emotional well-being? Am I going to complain endlessly and fruitlessly about it and potentially impact other people's emotional well-being with my negativity? Am I going to try to actually do something about it besides complain and post online about it? Am I going to accept it and move on and focus on the things that do bring me joy and contentment in life? Whatever the choice, it's on you, not come megacorporation. Not some nameless suit counting beans. Not on some renegade "creator-hero" bucking the system? Not some influencer? You. Take responsibility for yourself, your emotions, your reactions, and your actions. Control and change what you can absolutely. Express your feelings absolutely, but don't point fingers and don't dwell on what is not within your control after expressing your feelings, still letting it impact you months, years etc. later. We all have hobbies, passions, etc. we love and partake in because, I hope, the are things that bring us joy. If the actions of others and then of yourself turn it into something that brings you agita and not joy, then make a change. Find something different or find a way to to take joy in those things again. Your happiness and joy is not anyone else's responsibility. Especially not a megacorporation. They are not acting in anyone interest's but their own, but if you are letting your happiness be contingent on what they do or don't do, that's an abdication of your own responsibility and on you. -M
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Post by impulse on Dec 21, 2023 12:08:20 GMT -5
Got it, it seems like you are making a side point (a valid one) to the discussion here targeted at the perpetually-online always-complainers who wrap their identity in their version of their hobbies. I agree that those folks can be too negative and that one dwelling on things one can't control doesn't accomplish anything positive, sure. I agree with most of what you said. It's just not what people here are doing, so I was confused what point you were trying to make.
Realistic expectations and taking ownership of your own emotional state is solid advice. Shitty corporations doing shitty things they are allowed to do is a fact of life. It being a fact makes it no less their right and no less shitty when they do.
FWIW, personally speaking, I don't care whatsoever about the Batgirl movie, so I'm not one of the fans who was anticipating it. I feel bad for the people who were and the folks who worked on it whose work will never see the light of day, though.
Honestly, my free time, such as it is, goes to video games these days, anyway. I should go post in that thread. There, I said it.
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Post by Cei-U! on Dec 21, 2023 15:22:43 GMT -5
Geez, guys, haven't you beaten this particular horse enough? I don't think it can get any deader.
Cei-U! I summon the tedium! Oh, wait, it's already here!
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Post by Calidore on Dec 21, 2023 16:44:30 GMT -5
What I haven't seen mentioned (though I could easily have missed it) is that WB apparently thought shelving it would give them more money than releasing it. So did it look to them like another Catwoman? I don't think many working on that movie have it on their resume, or would have been sorry if it had been shelved. Possibly the execs thought it looked godawful and was likely a bomb?
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 21, 2023 16:49:00 GMT -5
but I don't think that once a movie has gotten to the point where it's been announced, advertised, presented at panels at comic cons and is well through filming and most of post that it is unrealistic to expect it will come out at some point. It's not 100% guaranteed in black and white, but nothing is. Its unrealistic when they should know that it is not unprecedented for movies to be produced and/or promoted, yet fail to be released. All of those employees' fortunes were never resting on some random project never seeing release, or being unable to add it to their list of credits. The individuals who worked on Batgirl are seasoned professionals with credits probably longer than Texas, and were already on to their next jobs while Batgirl was not in the assembly cut phase, so I find no valid argument which would support the "impact" notion.
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Post by tonebone on Dec 21, 2023 18:02:26 GMT -5
What I haven't seen mentioned (though I could easily have missed it) is that WB apparently thought shelving it would give them more money than releasing it. So did it look to them like another Catwoman? I don't think many working on that movie have it on their resume, or would have been sorry if it had been shelved. Possibly the execs thought it looked godawful and was likely a bomb? The budget of a movie is a direct corollary to the expenses AFTER the movie is finished. If the movie's budget is 300m, the marketing budget is also probably 300m (sometimes more). By shelving the movie, they not only save the 300m in marketing expenses, they get a tax write-off for some, if not all, of the 300m already spent. Contingent, of course, on the premise that they not show or make money off of the shelved movie in any way. If they thought it would bomb, and they can pull the plug before the marketing machine is running, they financially may fare as if they never spent a penny.
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Post by impulse on Dec 21, 2023 18:07:32 GMT -5
Its unrealistic when they should know that it is not unprecedented for movies to be produced and/or promoted, yet fail to be released. All of those employees' fortunes were never resting on some random project never seeing release, or being unable to add it to their list of credits. The individuals who worked on Batgirl are seasoned professionals with credits probably longer than Texas, and were already on to their next jobs while Batgirl was not in the assembly cut phase, so I find no valid argument which would support the "impact" notion. Look, this is getting really pedantic, nobody’s changing their minds, and others are getting fed up and leaving snippy comments, so time to move on, I think. I’ve said my piece.
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Post by tonebone on Dec 21, 2023 18:07:50 GMT -5
I've honestly lost sight of what the point the people defending the megacorps is supposed to be. People keep throwing around the word entitled when no one is saying or acting that way. If you are suggesting fans have no right to feel disappointed when a project they were looking forward and that was promoted to them to was cancelled, particularly when the corps are the ones who created the anticipation in the first place, then I don't see how we will ever agree. But nobody here is saying they are owed a movie, so this argument feels disingenuous or at least incorrectly applied. I think the corporate apologetics are a bit weird and are being conflated with the creative type deciding not to release something at their discretion. It's a corporation's right to do that, too, but I think it's more distasteful when the suits and bean counters pull a project to cash in on a tax break for the already well paid executive staff rather than a creator not releasing it for whatever reason. It's their right, but it feels a little slimy. I also disagree on the unrealistic expectations comment. Not overall, because absolutely there is some risk until something is in your hand, of course, but I don't think that once a movie has gotten to the point where it's been announced, advertised, presented at panels at comic cons and is well through filming and most of post that it is unrealistic to expect it will come out at some point. It's not 100% guaranteed in black and white, but nothing is. And yes, while it can and does happen, that's a lot of reel content VFX artists, animators, riggers, lighting folks, Foley engineers, etc do not get to use. So there is an impact on folks when things are pulled. Not defending a megacorp. Just giving insight to how it works, from the inside. Whether or not I agree with the megacorp's decisions, they feed my family and for that, I obey their rules. And, again, from the inside, from 30 years' experience, the impact on the creative and trade folks is not as big as people think. We just move on, and get to work another day. A REAL IMPACT is when the product is released, and the company sinks MORE money into it and it flops, and people get laid off. That is the undesirable impact.
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Post by tonebone on Dec 21, 2023 18:11:11 GMT -5
I stand by what I’ve said and don’t have more to add. It’s obvious everyone’s minds are made up. I’m not interested in the level of pedantry needed to continue this topic and people are getting fed up and leaving snippy comments, so time to move on. Sorry to bore you. People are speculating on "Why do they do that?" , and "How are people affected?", and I have the experience to answer the question, at least as how it applies to me. I won't post anything else in this topic.
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Post by impulse on Dec 21, 2023 18:13:33 GMT -5
I stand by what I’ve said and don’t have more to add. It’s obvious everyone’s minds are made up. I’m not interested in the level of pedantry needed to continue this topic and people are getting fed up and leaving snippy comments, so time to move on. Sorry to bore you. People are speculating on "Why do they do that?" , and "How are people affected?", and I have the experience to answer the question, at least as how it applies to me. I won't post anything else in this topic. You’re not boring. Your insights are interesting. It’s just clear others are getting frustrated and testy so just reading the room and bowing out.
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