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Post by rberman on Feb 2, 2018 9:11:36 GMT -5
Remember that Star Trek episode where one side of Frank Gorshin's face is white and the other is black and he's fighting another guy whose face is also half white/half black? But because the other guy's face is "white on the left side" Gorshin's character explains that he is therefore inferior as Kirk and Spock stare at him with a "you've completely lost us" look on their face? That's how I feel anytime a story tries to convince me that Superman and Batman are polar opposites because, I don't know, one fights crime at night and the other doesn't I guess. The notion that they are implacable foes is silly. But I am glad we escaped the DC Silver Age "All heroes have the same personality" trope. Marvel showed the storytelling benefits of having heroes with different personalities who can come into degrees of conflict. Also, the two characters represent very different sides of the American experience: Superman: The immigrant making something of himself. The move of "innocent" rural America to the "evil" cities in the early 20th century. Truth, justice, and the American Way. Motivation through hope. Maintaining the status quo. The promise of advanced science to build utopia. An ubermensch who has to pretend to be a normal person. Favorite colors: red, blue. Batman: He comes from the pinnacle of the American dream yet finds it worthless because its foundations have decayed. The rotten soul of urban crime has called into being its own nemesis, a creature of the shadows, motivated by revenge and motivating by fear. The successful vigilante whose very existence indicts the impotence of society's usual crime-fighting apparatus. Favorite colors: grey, black. So I do see them as quite opposite. That doesn't mean they have to hate each other or engage in combat. It just means their worldviews and methods ought to provide interesting opportunities for conflict.
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Post by MDG on Feb 2, 2018 9:26:13 GMT -5
One interesting contrast, if you look at their earliest stories, is that Superman used his power as essentially a SJW, due process be damned. Batman spent a lot of his time helping rich people get their jewelry back.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Feb 3, 2018 7:27:36 GMT -5
So I do see them as quite opposite. That doesn't mean they have to hate each other or engage in combat. It just means their worldviews and methods ought to provide interesting opportunities for conflict. I agree. It's much more interesting when they generally like and respect each other, but at the same time there is a nuanced tension to their interactions. Unless we're going back to the days where both are deputized law-enforcers, they're both technically playing the same vigilante game, just on different levels.
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Post by chadwilliam on Feb 3, 2018 11:56:24 GMT -5
So I do see them as quite opposite. That doesn't mean they have to hate each other or engage in combat. It just means their worldviews and methods ought to provide interesting opportunities for conflict. I agree. It's much more interesting when they generally like and respect each other, but at the same time there is a nuanced tension to their interactions. Unless we're going back to the days where both are deputized law-enforcers, they're both technically playing the same vigilante game, just on different levels. "like and respect each other" is essential, in my opinion. Back in the late 80's following the success of Dark Knight and the '89 film, Batman was regarded as the epitome of cool. It was also during this period that his interactions with Superman made it clear that he didn't think highly of the guy. Death in the Family played up Superman as a government stooge who showed up in the story to keep Batman in line as did Dark Knight; Byrne's Man of Steel series had Batman outright admit that he and Superman couldn't be friends - a position reiterated by Superman in the Worlds Finest miniseries from 1990; a Justice League tale from late in the decade had Batman dismissively refer to Superman as "mother country and apple pie" - a recurring theme of condescension in their relationship which could probably be best summed up through the exchange Geoff Johns penned for them in Infinite Crisis years later: Batman: Let's face it Superman, the last time you inspired anyone was when you were dead. Superman: Bruce is right. Bruce is always right. I mean, when you have the coolest/most popular guy in comics consistently making it clear that Superman is worthy only of derision, why would new fans want to have anything to do with a DC character DC itself is constantly bashing?
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Post by rberman on Feb 3, 2018 11:59:56 GMT -5
"like and respect each other" is essential, in my opinion. Back in the late 80's following the success of Dark Knight and the '89 film, Batman was regarded as the epitome of cool. It was also during this period that his interactions with Superman made it clear that he didn't think highly of the guy. Death in the Family played up Superman as a government stooge who showed up in the story to keep Batman in line as did Dark Knight; Byrne's Man of Steel series had Batman outright admit that he and Superman couldn't be friends - a position reiterated by Superman in the Worlds Finest miniseries from 1990; a Justice League tale from late in the decade had Batman dismissively refer to Superman as "mother country and apple pie" - a recurring theme of condescension in their relationship which could probably be best summed up through the exchange Geoff Johns penned for them in Infinite Crisis years later: Batman: Let's face it Superman, the last time you inspired anyone was when you were dead. Superman: Bruce is right. Bruce is always right. I mean, when you have the coolest/most popular guy in comics consistently making it clear that Superman is worthy only of derision, why would new fans want to have anything to do with a DC character DC itself is constantly bashing? Lots of different people are playing in the Superman/Batman pool. In anything Alex Ross is involved with (Kingdom Come, Justice, etc, various one-shots) there's always a level of respect between them. The short story in Ross' "Mythology" coffee table book starts with the premise that Superman has given Batman a Kryptonite bullet to shoot him with in case he ever gets mind controlled, which indeed he does during that very story. That's quite a high trust level there, not just that Batman will not abuse the bullet but that he won't let it get stolen either.
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Post by chadwilliam on Feb 3, 2018 13:04:02 GMT -5
"like and respect each other" is essential, in my opinion. Back in the late 80's following the success of Dark Knight and the '89 film, Batman was regarded as the epitome of cool. It was also during this period that his interactions with Superman made it clear that he didn't think highly of the guy. Death in the Family played up Superman as a government stooge who showed up in the story to keep Batman in line as did Dark Knight; Byrne's Man of Steel series had Batman outright admit that he and Superman couldn't be friends - a position reiterated by Superman in the Worlds Finest miniseries from 1990; a Justice League tale from late in the decade had Batman dismissively refer to Superman as "mother country and apple pie" - a recurring theme of condescension in their relationship which could probably be best summed up through the exchange Geoff Johns penned for them in Infinite Crisis years later: Batman: Let's face it Superman, the last time you inspired anyone was when you were dead. Superman: Bruce is right. Bruce is always right. I mean, when you have the coolest/most popular guy in comics consistently making it clear that Superman is worthy only of derision, why would new fans want to have anything to do with a DC character DC itself is constantly bashing? Lots of different people are playing in the Superman/Batman pool. In anything Alex Ross is involved with (Kingdom Come, Justice, etc, various one-shots) there's always a level of respect between them. The short story in Ross' "Mythology" coffee table book starts with the premise that Superman has given Batman a Kryptonite bullet to shoot him with in case he ever gets mind controlled, which indeed he does during that very story. That's quite a high trust level there, not just that Batman will not abuse the bullet but that he won't let it get stolen either. I believe that Jeph Loeb did a lot to undo the damage Crisis wrought with his Superman/Batman series and I'll always appreciate his efforts. That 'Mythology' story is a great one - has it only ever been printed there? - but I felt that Kingdom Come was part of the problem. "You know all about hiding", "Where have you been? Oh, I'm sorry. Perhaps I should ask Magog.", "You used to brag that Metropolis was a utopia next to Gotham. Now who has the utopia?", "For a man who can hear clouds scrape together, you don't listen very well" "BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahityBlah" - and this is all from a three page sequence. Of course, this might have been a symptom of DC's insistence that Batman be an unlikable SOB rather than a decision to re-pick at 10 year old scabs, but good Lord, either way it was draining to read. Of course, Ross only painted Kingdom Come and I believe that his follow up had them acting as adults. I really don't know what Batman's problem was supposed to be with Superman. Both of them have a vow against killing, neither of them turn a blind eye to any time of crime, both are willing to do the old dangle a bad guy off a roof until he tells me what I want routine - is it simply a matter of Superman operates during the day? If so, then why doesn't Batman have a problem with, say, Commissioner Gordon? You don't hear any "Am I keeping you up past your bedtime, Gordon? Why did you summon me tonight - need me to tuck you in and read you a bedtime story? That's alright for you, Mr. 'I Don't Need to Wear a Cape to Fight Crime'" cracks during their exchanges.
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Post by Prince Hal on Feb 3, 2018 14:01:47 GMT -5
One interesting contrast, if you look at their earliest stories, is that Superman used his power as essentially a SJW, due process be damned. Batman spent a lot of his time helping rich people get their jewelry back. Agree, but to a point. From early on Batman fights a succession of grotesques, very like the foes faced by Doc Savage: Mad Monk, Dr. Death, Hugo Strange, the Scarlet Horde, etc. Thid continued even after Robin was introduced to add a "lighter touch." Homicidal maniacs, "Oriental" cults and mad killers were still the order of the day. Sometimes wealthy people are kidnapped, threatened, etc. (Even the Joker pulls that kind of scam in his first appearance.) But I think that's because they were more plot devices than Batman's preferred clientele. Plus, this was the time of the Lindbergh kidnapping, which gripped the nation for several years and was actuually not an isolated event, but the culmination of kidnapping as a very common crime. It was only when it was made a federal offense b/c of the Lindbergh case that kidnapping died out as a popular criminal enterprise.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Feb 4, 2018 7:38:36 GMT -5
I don't necessarily mind a Superman and Batman very early in their career not seeing eye to eye, but Batman still deriding Superman ten years (or whatever DC has as the sliding timescale nowadays) into their careers? Surely Batman would have come around to openly respecting Superman at that point.
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Post by The Captain on Feb 4, 2018 8:29:04 GMT -5
One interesting contrast, if you look at their earliest stories, is that Superman used his power as essentially a SJW, due process be damned. Batman spent a lot of his time helping rich people get their jewelry back. To be fair, if you're going to rob someone, why wouldn't you target rich people? I mean, if I were so inclined to steal from one of my neighbors, I'm not breaking into the ramshackle dump down on the other side of the tracks or shaking down the wino lying in the gutter to look for money, gold and jewels.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 13, 2018 16:43:56 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of Carmine Infantino's later work...pretty much anything after he was publisher at DC. But I just saw late Infantino inked by Dezuniga and it looked darn good.
There. I said it.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 13, 2018 16:57:13 GMT -5
I could tolerate his early stuff but the later Flash run was torture to the eyes.
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Post by Prince Hal on Feb 13, 2018 16:58:20 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of Carmine Infantino's later work...pretty much anything after he was publisher at DC. But I just saw late Infantino inked by Dezuniga and it looked darn good. There. I said it. Tru dat.
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Post by Prince Hal on Feb 13, 2018 16:58:43 GMT -5
I could tolerate his early stuff but the later Flash run was torture to the eyes.Preach.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 13, 2018 17:04:56 GMT -5
I thought his early Silver Age stuff was quite good (Flash, Batman). And his Golden Age stuff. And guy was a monster cover designer and a great storyteller. But as I say I disliked his work from the mid 70s on.
But I just saw a story he did for Secret Origins in the late 80s that was inked by Dezuniga and it looked great.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 13, 2018 17:11:57 GMT -5
There aren't too many great artists that don't lose a foot on the fast ball as they age. But certainly a good inker covers all sins.
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