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Post by badwolf on Apr 1, 2021 14:37:09 GMT -5
Not really. A lot more happened than being shown pictures. If Gordon was sexualized somewhere in that story, please do remind me. He was stripped naked and paraded through a crowd of leering, laughing freaks.
Maybe you don't see it as sexual because he's not female?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 1, 2021 14:43:21 GMT -5
If Gordon was sexualized somewhere in that story, please do remind me. He was stripped naked and paraded through a crowd of leering, laughing freaks. Maybe you don't see it as sexual because he's not female?
Yes, he is humiliated, but the crowning moment, the BIG finale, is having to watch what is done to his daughter. Add to that the fact that Gordon has a personality in this story. He has a perspective, thoughts, and motivations. Babs is there to get crippled and sexually abused. There is a difference.
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Post by impulse on Apr 1, 2021 14:46:33 GMT -5
What I don't understand is some people's need to impose their opinions/preferences on others. You don't like Manara's cover, that's absolutely fine, don't buy it. But going out of your way to spend time and effort to prevent other people buying it? Why on earth would you do that? That sums up our entire society in a nutshell, doesn't it?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 1, 2021 14:54:31 GMT -5
What I don't understand is some people's need to impose their opinions/preferences on others. You don't like Manara's cover, that's absolutely fine, don't buy it. But going out of your way to spend time and effort to prevent other people buying it? Why on earth would you do that? Marvel had a right to do it. Folks had a right to be pissed about it. Unfortunately, since copyright law has been perpetually perverted and extended into infinity, most of our modern day heroes are corporate owned. Were the icons we grew up with in the public domain, a company could do whatever they please with them. But since Marvel has exclusive control over what is done with the characters, when they make a wrong choice, fans that care are going to be upset.
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Post by impulse on Apr 1, 2021 15:42:18 GMT -5
But I guess that's the point. Who's to say they did anything "wrong" per se? Why should it be wrong? Don't like it, don't buy it.
Knowing the market, though, maybe it wasn't the smartest choice.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 1, 2021 15:54:27 GMT -5
But I guess that's the point. Who's to say they did anything "wrong" per se? Why should it be wrong? Don't like it, don't buy it. Knowing the market, though, maybe it wasn't the smartest choice. As in "wrong" in the eyes of the fan. Essentially I think we agree, here. Marvel owes no one anything, but if they piss off fans, there are financial consequences.
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Post by impulse on Apr 1, 2021 15:59:13 GMT -5
Can't argue with that. Though I imagine the media outlets making the fuss aren't even comic book readers. It's just an easy shortcut to get clicks combining a now-popular IP with controversy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 16:06:37 GMT -5
Sexy covers by Manara and Frank Cho don't really bother me. And I'm female.
I'm more offended by Rob Liefeld's renderings of the female body, which are an abomination and burns the skin from my eyes.
There, I beeyotched at Rob again so sue me.
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Post by impulse on Apr 1, 2021 16:13:01 GMT -5
Sexy covers by Manara and Frank Cho don't really bother me. And I'm female. I'm more offended by Rob Liefeld's renderings of the female body, which are an abomination and burns the skin from my eyes. There, I beeyotched at Rob again so sue me.
I cannot believe you would say that!!!! Are you kidding me??? Liefeld's horrendous anatomy is NOT just limited to female anatomy! He is an equal-opportunity offender and draws EVERYONE poorly!
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 1, 2021 16:14:52 GMT -5
He was stripped naked and paraded through a crowd of leering, laughing freaks. Maybe you don't see it as sexual because he's not female?
Yes, he is humiliated, but the crowning moment, the BIG finale, is having to watch what is done to his daughter. Add to that the fact that Gordon has a personality in this story. He has a perspective, thoughts, and motivations. Babs is there to get crippled and sexually abused. There is a difference. True, Barbara's only role in the story was to be a victim. She was like a red shirt on Star Trek, to be sacrificed to show how nasty the bad guy is. Moore tried to give her something of a character by having her react in such a heroic fashion to her ordeal (instead of lamenting her own fate, she was all about saving her father and warning Bruce of how the Joker had ratcheted up the insanity), but it doesn't change the fact that she was used as a plot device. I'm not sure it was a bad plot device, mind you, because I can't think of anything worse for a parent than to see their children abused, and to be helpless to help them. As far as the story goes, it made sense, and since it made me sick as a reader, I can imagine what went through Gordon's head. I deeply disliked that story, though. Talk about dark. Talk about wasting a good character for the sake of one shocking moment. But what I really hated was how it ended... Batman stops the Joker, who tells a joke, and the two laugh together as if going "man, what sorry a pair we are, am I right?" I thought indulging in that awkward bonding moment showed a terrible lack of respect for what Barbara and Jim had just gone through.
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Post by berkley on Apr 1, 2021 16:17:15 GMT -5
Yes, he is humiliated, but the crowning moment, the BIG finale, is having to watch what is done to his daughter. Add to that the fact that Gordon has a personality in this story. He has a perspective, thoughts, and motivations. Babs is there to get crippled and sexually abused. There is a difference. True, Barbara's only role in the story was to be a victim. She was like a red shirt on Star Trek, to be sacrificed to show how nasty the bad guy is. Moore tried to give her something of a character by having her react in such a heroic fashion to her ordeal (instead of lamenting her own fate, she was all about saving her father and warning Bruce of how the Joker had ratcheted up the insanity), but it doesn't change the fact that she was used as a plot device. I'm not sure it was a bad plot device, mind you, because I can't think of anything worse for a parent than to see their children abused, and to be helpless to help them. As far as the story goes, it made sense, and since it made me sick as a reader, I can imagine what went through Gordon's head. I deeply disliked that story, though. Talk about dark. Talk about wasting a good character for the sake of one shocking moment. But what I really hated was how it ended... Batman stops the Joker, who tells a joke, and the two laugh together as if going "man, what sorry a pair we are, am I right?" I thought indulging in that awkward bonding moment showed a terrible lack of respect for what Barbara and Jim had just gone through.
Yeah, it's a story I've never felt tempted to read, for all the reasons give. I'm not at all surprised that Moore himself has expressed distaste for it in later years.
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Post by berkley on Apr 1, 2021 16:20:58 GMT -5
Sexy covers by Manara and Frank Cho don't really bother me. And I'm female.
I'm more offended by Rob Liefeld's renderings of the female body, which are an abomination and burns the skin from my eyes.
There, I beeyotched at Rob again so sue me.
I think Cho actually deserves some credit for making his heroines more convincingly strong and athletic looking than most superhero artists manage to do - though it seems he's fallen off a bit in this respect with some of his most recent covers that I've seen online.
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Post by Duragizer on Apr 1, 2021 16:22:49 GMT -5
I honestly believe The Killing Joke wouldn't be so highly regarded if it wasn't for Bolland's art. If, say, Klaus Janson had illustrated it, it would've been relegated to the "imaginary story" pile and all but forgotten by everyone but the diehard Moore fans today.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 1, 2021 16:23:29 GMT -5
But what I really hated was how it ended... Batman stops the Joker, who tells a joke, and the two laugh together as if going "man, what sorry a pair we are, am I right?" I thought indulging in that awkward bonding moment showed a terrible lack of respect for what Barbara and Jim had just gone through. Some read the end as signifying that Batman killed or is about to kill The Joker. It's been years since I read up on this theory, but it has something to do with the joke's punchline. Still, I absolutely agree with your assessment otherwise.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 1, 2021 16:43:40 GMT -5
Sexy covers by Manara and Frank Cho don't really bother me. And I'm female.
I'm more offended by Rob Liefeld's renderings of the female body, which are an abomination and burns the skin from my eyes.
There, I beeyotched at Rob again so sue me.
I think Cho actually deserves some credit for making his heroines more convincingly strong and athletic looking than most superhero artists manage to do - though it seems he's fallen off a bit in this respect with some of his most recent covers that I've seen online. Cho draws amazing ankles on his female characters. He's like the anti-Liefeld.
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