shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 26, 2021 7:00:34 GMT -5
Men will dominate women when they have strength over them. I can't possibly agree with you here. Absolutely not. Also no. I literally couldn't see myself ever intentionally dominating a women, even if I was stronger than her (which is certainly not a given). I couldn't imagine being in that moment and actually finding it gratifying, let alone arousing. I always felt the point of Harbinger #0 was that Peter didn't fully understand what he was doing, or was at least lying to himself about it. I'll buy that most men (and, likely, women) in the heat of the moment will choose to see consent unless it is abundantly clear that there is no consent; that's a disturbing truth to consider when we look at ourselves in the mirror, and it can still end up being rape, but that's a far cry from an admission that all men want to physically violate and rape women. And (to his credit) Peter does ultimately realize what he is doing and stops it long before it goes too far, so even Shooter would disagree with you on this one. Are either of them devout Christians? Seems to me more that there is something else going on. They freak me out precisely because they are not close to home for me, and because it utterly disturbs me that they'd be close to home for anyone. I'm not sure I have anything more to say about Moore that hasn't already been said a dozen times, but I will offer that I've always been a huge fan of Shooter, and it broke my heart that, in my one online interaction I ever had with him, he absolutely went OFF on me because I suggested in his Gold Key reboot of Doctor Solar, that he had used rape as an extraneous, utterly unnecessary plot twist without having any regard for the emotional experience of the victim. He did not take kindly to that.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 26, 2021 8:24:35 GMT -5
My writing skills are not on par with yours, so I will attempt to clarify. Men will dominate women when they have strength over them.
I can't possibly agree with you here. Absolutely not.
Immoral men who feel they justified will certainly dominate woman . You see it all the time on TV, news, court cases. Men are physically stronger ,faster and more aggressive than women. It will always be that way.Also no.It is without dispute that men are stronger than women, even if you don't agree. Look at sports, Serena Williams is , until recently, the top Woman tennis player in the world but the 100th ranked mens player would totally destroy her in a match. Male tennis players serve the ball at 100mph. Women do not. Men are faster( look at the world running records). Men are stronger , again look at the world records. Is EVERY man stronger than every woman? Of course not , but with overwhelming numbers they generally are. Only compassion and being raised with morals will slow that down.
I literally couldn't see myself ever intentionally dominating a women, even if I was stronger than her (which is certainly not a given). I couldn't imagine being in that moment and actually finding it gratifying, let alone arousing.
It is always a mistake to apply your code of behavior to others. Criminal courts are full of people that don't act like you. Peter in Harbinger did what ANY man would do if they had amazing power, they would take what they wanted.I always felt the point of Harbinger #0 was that Peter didn't fully understand what he was doing, or was at least lying to himself about it. I'll buy that most men (and, likely, women) in the heat of the moment will choose to see consent unless it is abundantly clear that there is no consent; that's a disturbing truth to consider when we look at ourselves in the mirror, and it can still end up being rape, but that's a far cry from an admission that all men want to physically violate and rape women. And (to his credit) Peter does ultimately realize what he is doing and stops it long before it goes too far, so even Shooter would disagree with you on this one.This was a response to what codystarbuck posted. I don't recall the nuance of the forced romance, but he did use his power to influence her to a relationship. I would have to re-read the issues. Moore and Shooter's stories only reflect the sin nature that is in all people from birth.
Are either of them devout Christians? Seems to me more that there is something else going on.
This is not a "Christian " thing. Human beings are born and they want independence. The first words children learn is "no". Kids have to be taught right and wrong, how to share etc. These stories are " bad" because they hit a little too close to home.
They freak me out precisely because they are not close to home for me, and because it utterly disturbs me that they'd be close to home for anyone.
What I a referring to when I say "close to home", is that it reflects real world violence and sadism and not fake comic book violence. The violence in the Killing joke was hard to watch precisely because it's something you could read about or see in the news. We want our fake violence without repercussions like broken limbs, brain damage, ptsd and the rest.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 26, 2021 8:42:14 GMT -5
My writing skills are not on par with yours, so I will attempt to clarify. Men will dominate women when they have strength over them.
I can't possibly agree with you here. Absolutely not.
Immoral men who feel they justified will certainly dominate woman . You see it all the time on TV, news, court cases. Sure. Your statement implied that ALL men are stronger than ALL women. There are certainly women who can kick my butt. But you were speaking for ALL men, my friend. It's a really powerful and uncomfortable moment, and it leaves both Peter and Kris to wonder whether their relationship began because Kris was genuinely concerned for Peter or because he'd been subconsciously mind-controlling her all along. Whatever else you might read into it, it leaves Peter acutely aware that he has too much power and prompts his own "With great power comes great responsibility" moment. "sin nature" is absolutely a "Christian" thing. Correcting a child and helping them to perceive that they cannot and should not always get what they want is not the same as assuming they are born into sin. In fact, many contemporary child psychologists will tell you that consistently setting limits actually makes a child feel safe and reassured; it's a form of love. My objection to that idea has always been to ask who is going to write the story where Joker captures and sodomizes Batman? How come, in all the various takes on the same old story where Batman gets locked up in Arkham, no one ever attempts to rape him there? Even though rape is really about control and desecration (NOT sexual attraction), writers are extremely comfortable applying it to women but will never apply it to men.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 26, 2021 8:46:23 GMT -5
My objection to that idea has always been to ask who is going to write the story where Joker captures and sodomizes Batman? How come, in all the various takes on the same old story where Batman gets locked up in Arkham, no one ever attempts to rape him there? Even though rape is really about control and desecration (NOT sexual attraction), writers are extremely comfortable applying it to women but will never apply it to men.
The last time a man was going to be raped in comics that I can remember, almost got Jim Shooter run out on a rail. I believe that Batman being raped would be a line that could never be crossed. They still want fans to come back, after all.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 26, 2021 8:48:51 GMT -5
My objection to that idea has always been to ask who is going to write the story where Joker captures and sodomizes Batman? How come, in all the various takes on the same old story where Batman gets locked up in Arkham, no one ever attempts to rape him there? Even though rape is really about control and desecration (NOT sexual attraction), writers are extremely comfortable applying it to women but will never apply it to men.The last time a man was going to be raped in comics that I can remember, almost got Jim Shooter run out on a rail. I believe that Batman being raped would be a line that could never be crossed. They still want fans to come back, after all. Isn't that interesting, though? Rape a female character = Ooh! So shocking! So REAL WORLD! Rape a male character = fans leaving for good.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 26, 2021 8:50:23 GMT -5
Wanting independence and saying “no” are not wrong/indicators of sin/immoral. And saying “immoral men” do something versus just “men” isn’t clarification, it’s changing your stance. Christian or not, your original post reads like religious indoctrination crap. And as someone who went to church as a child and infrequently as an adult, it’s really gross and part of the reason I had to add the “infrequently” qualifier. I believe man is born sinful. I don't mean man is born evil. Your relationship to God is your business.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 26, 2021 8:50:34 GMT -5
Immoral men who feel they justified will certainly dominate woman . You see it all the time on TV, news, court cases. I agree: immoral people with any kind of power over others will willfully use it to their own benefit. It's essentially what makes them immoral, actually! Again correct, hence our separating men and women in athletic competitions. I couldn't possibly disagree less! I mean, forget about behaving like a monster toward members of the other sex... I can't even see myself stealing a piece of candy! But obviously, humanity isn't all like that. Heh! What you call a sinful nature, I call our natural instincts. We do have to be taught to behave properly in a society, and most children learn early that they shouldn't bite their friends or steal their toys; most social creatures are like that.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 26, 2021 8:51:18 GMT -5
My objection to that idea has always been to ask who is going to write the story where Joker captures and sodomizes Batman? How come, in all the various takes on the same old story where Batman gets locked up in Arkham, no one ever attempts to rape him there? Even though rape is really about control and desecration (NOT sexual attraction), writers are extremely comfortable applying it to women but will never apply it to men.The last time a man was going to be raped in comics that I can remember, almost got Jim Shooter run out on a rail. I believe that Batman being raped would be a line that could never be crossed. They still want fans to come back, after all. Isn't that interesting, though? Rape a female character = Ooh! So shocking! So REAL WORLD! Rape a male character = fans leaving for good. I think that if Wonder Woman was raped, it would hurt the book as well.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 26, 2021 8:53:28 GMT -5
Immoral men who feel they justified will certainly dominate woman . You see it all the time on TV, news, court cases. I agree: immoral people with any kind of power over others will willfully use it to their own benefit. It's essentially what makes them immoral, actually! Again correct, hence our separating men and women in athletic competitions. I couldn't possibly disagree less! I mean, forget about behaving like a monster toward members of the other sex... I can't even see myself stealing a piece of candy! But obviously, humanity isn't all like that. Heh! What you call a sinful nature, I call our natural instincts. We do have to be taught to behave properly in a society, and most children learn early that they shouldn't bite their friends or steal their toys; most social creatures are like that. Yeah, it annoyed someone that I said sin nature instead of natural instincts. Okay, have it your way.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 26, 2021 8:58:14 GMT -5
Isn't that interesting, though? Rape a female character = Ooh! So shocking! So REAL WORLD! Rape a male character = fans leaving for good. I think that if Wonder Woman was raped, it would hurt the book as well. And yet that very idea was pitched at DC! It didn't annoy me. It had a very specific and religious connotation, so I asked you if you had reason to believe either writer subscribed to that belief system. It takes a lot more than that to annoy me, my friend.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 26, 2021 9:01:38 GMT -5
Heh! What you call a sinful nature, I call our natural instincts. We do have to be taught to behave properly in a society, and most children learn early that they shouldn't bite their friends or steal their toys; most social creatures are like that. Yeah, it annoyed someone that I said sin nature instead of natural instincts. Okay, have it your way. It's fine with me; one person's sinful nature is another's instinctive behaviour. Potayto and potahto!
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 26, 2021 9:01:59 GMT -5
I think that if Wonder Woman was raped, it would hurt the book as well. And yet that very idea was pitched at DC! It didn't annoy me. It had a very specific and religious connotation, so I asked you if you had reason to believe either writer subscribed to that belief system. It takes a lot more than that to annoy me, my friend. Shax, I wasn't referring to you. But every once in a while you and I have to mix it up like we did in the Savage Dragon vs Cerebus thread. It cleans the soul.
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Post by Batflunkie on Jul 26, 2021 9:44:16 GMT -5
In Harbinger 0, the central character, Peter, discovers his psychic abilities, as his latent telepathic powers activate. He uses them to persuade the girl he has a crush on to go out with him. She had never given him the time of day, before that. Later, after he has met Harbinger and Harada, he is troubled. He is with the girl, Kris, and removes the psychic influence and apologizes, and she attacks him for it, verbally, rightfully saying it is evil. Now, the character recognizes the immorality of what he had done and learns there are consequences of his powers; but, it wasn't the first time he went into mental control of a female, by a male character of immense power. Kris actually sticks with the character, when he turns on the Harbinger Foundation, despite what he had done, which was more than a bit reminiscent to the storyline of Luke and Laura, on General Hospital, where Anthony Geary's character raped Laura, then she falls in love with him, leaves her husband (boyfriend? Don't recall if they were married) and runs off with him, as they get caught up in a James Bond plot. There was some noise from female critics about Laura falling in love with a man who raped her, but it was quickly drowned out by fans of the characters, as a couple, which tended to ignore the earlier storyline. They reused those elements in the Dysart relaunch, but I think it just did more to highlight that Peter is this dangerous, borderline uncontrollable person who has nothing going for him (last act of a desperate man much?). Harada is a worse person in the general sense, but Peter is still pretty awful
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 26, 2021 10:07:33 GMT -5
In Harbinger 0, the central character, Peter, discovers his psychic abilities, as his latent telepathic powers activate. He uses them to persuade the girl he has a crush on to go out with him. She had never given him the time of day, before that. Later, after he has met Harbinger and Harada, he is troubled. He is with the girl, Kris, and removes the psychic influence and apologizes, and she attacks him for it, verbally, rightfully saying it is evil. Now, the character recognizes the immorality of what he had done and learns there are consequences of his powers; but, it wasn't the first time he went into mental control of a female, by a male character of immense power. Kris actually sticks with the character, when he turns on the Harbinger Foundation, despite what he had done, which was more than a bit reminiscent to the storyline of Luke and Laura, on General Hospital, where Anthony Geary's character raped Laura, then she falls in love with him, leaves her husband (boyfriend? Don't recall if they were married) and runs off with him, as they get caught up in a James Bond plot. There was some noise from female critics about Laura falling in love with a man who raped her, but it was quickly drowned out by fans of the characters, as a couple, which tended to ignore the earlier storyline. They reused those elements in the Dysart relaunch, but I think it just did more to highlight that Peter is this dangerous, borderline uncontrollable person who has nothing going for him (last act of a desperate man much?). Harada is a worse person in the general sense, but Peter is still pretty awful Power corrupts. Generally, when people have an advantage, they use it.
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Post by impulse on Jul 26, 2021 10:45:16 GMT -5
Power corrupts. Generally, when people have an advantage, they use it. Is it that power corrupts, or is it that the corrupt are the ones who tend to amass power? I've recently been leaning more toward this view as I get older.
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