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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 22, 2022 11:07:30 GMT -5
I know this has been kind of addressed, but this was how comics was for at least the first 35-40 years of their existence. For the vast majority of both writers and artists in comic books from the birth of the industry until the late 60s/early 70s comics were what you did to pay the bills and hopefully get a chance to go on to something that paid better and had some actual prestige, usually comic strips or advertising. Plenty of Golden Age writers and artists in interviews have admitted that they told their neighbors they worked in other fields than comics because the truth was too embarrassing socially. It wasn't until the influx of fans turned creators starting with the likes of Roy Thomas that you began to get creators who wanted to do comics instead of doing them until something better came along. True, but now that the characters are established, I think most of the "creators" are no longer fans, and that's not a good thing. "Fan" creators were responsible for the travesty that was Crisis on Infinite Earths. So your mileage definitely may vary.
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Post by badwolf on Mar 22, 2022 11:13:46 GMT -5
True, but now that the characters are established, I think most of the "creators" are no longer fans, and that's not a good thing. "Fan" creators were responsible for the travesty that was Crisis on Infinite Earths. So your mileage definitely may vary. I thought it was the editors and high mucky-mucks but either way I loved it.
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Post by Trevor on Mar 22, 2022 12:25:12 GMT -5
To play devil's advocate a bit and conceding that some of the ideas are dumb, but what else are they supposed to do? The problem stems from serialized sequential storytelling that never ends spanning decades. How many times can Magneto attack in how many ways before it gets old? How many times and ways can Batman lock up the Joker before it becomes a rehash? Not saying the creators always nail it, but by their nature, it seems superhero comics as we know them are destined to either repeat and get stale or go to increasingly odd places because after 60 years of continuous story without drastically changing the status quo, you eventually touch on everything there is. His quirks and later writing aside, one cool thing Chris Claremont did with the X-Men is change things up. They went from defending their upstate NY prep school from Magneto to fighting aliens in space to hiding from cyborgs in the dessert using magic to be untraceable. Did all of those stories hit for everyone? Absolutely not, but at least it went somewhere different. Yep, trying to tell stories with the same characters for 80+ years is a flawed model. I still greatly enjoy my big-two superhero stories, but they pale in comparison to modern independents where they more often just tell a good story and get out. 4/6/12/40 issues, whatever it takes. No need to try to serialize it forever or try to tie it into decades of stories.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 22, 2022 13:25:14 GMT -5
"Fan" creators were responsible for the travesty that was Crisis on Infinite Earths. So your mileage definitely may vary. I thought it was the editors and high mucky-mucks but either way I loved it. Yes, if COIE was the standard for fan-creators, the industry would be in a far stronger position. COIE was and remains one of the best concepts stories DC ever published.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 22, 2022 13:38:01 GMT -5
I thought it was the editors and high mucky-mucks but either way I loved it. Yes, if COIE was the standard for fan-creators, the industry would be in a far stronger position. COIE was and remains one of the best concepts stories DC ever published. Completely unnecessary "fix" to a non-existent problem with a ridiculous plot and sub-par scripting, the only marginal saving grace of which was pretty pictures (which were crammed with too much stuff). On the plus side the first few issues used experimental printing that made it look terrible. But other than that...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2022 14:49:59 GMT -5
I think continuity became a much bigger deal in the 80's with the rise of the direct market and demographics swinging older.
Yes, continuity existed before, but back when it was mostly kids buying comic books off the newsstand in their youth primarily for a few key years, there wasn't as much baggage for publishers to worry about. The Silver Age of DC didn't start with an "epic event" for instance, but rather "hey, let's try super-heroes again and spruce things up with a new take on the Flash". And then they just filled in the rest as they went, eventually coming up with storylines explaining the Golden Age heroes which led to the much anticipated annual team-ups between the JLA/JSA.
That said, I do think DC was smart to realize that in the direct market environment, they needed to take a hard look at how the "old way" of storytelling wasn't always working for a number of titles. But I think the challenge with the Crisis approach was that ultimately they closed more doors than the ones they opened. Popular titles at the time like Legion of Super-Heroes and All-Star Squadron were pretty much destroyed overnight. The aforementioned JLA/JSA team-ups were no more.
One of the beautiful things about comic books to me is that we can often look past continuity considerations if we're really enjoying the story we're reading since it's all fantasy entertainment at the end of the day. Why did I never mind the early flashbacks in say Spidey or the FF in the late 70's or 80's when they were embellished a fair amount from how the original 60's comics looked? Because it didn't really matter that much and rather kind of just "made sense" based on how old the characters should have been at that point. That's a very simple example, but by broader extension I think the DC titles during the direct market era just needed creative teams that really resonated with the reading audience of that time more, and making changes (including continuity disruption as warranted) WHEN it made sense to tell a great story versus effectively neutering the entire playing field right out of the gate.
On a lighter note, I've made this comment before, but I've rationalized that Crisis was really an Elseworlds story. It's much more enjoyable that way to me.
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Post by badwolf on Mar 22, 2022 14:59:50 GMT -5
Yes, if COIE was the standard for fan-creators, the industry would be in a far stronger position. COIE was and remains one of the best concepts stories DC ever published. Completely unnecessary "fix" to a non-existent problem with a ridiculous plot and sub-par scripting, the only marginal saving grace of which was pretty pictures (which were crammed with too much stuff). On the plus side the first few issues used experimental printing that made it look terrible. But other than that... ...it got me reading DC regularly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2022 15:10:01 GMT -5
Completely unnecessary "fix" to a non-existent problem with a ridiculous plot and sub-par scripting, the only marginal saving grace of which was pretty pictures (which were crammed with too much stuff). On the plus side the first few issues used experimental printing that made it look terrible. But other than that... ...it got me reading DC regularly. I think you're far from alone in that, and I actually think that's great if that's what clicked for you. Crisis certainly did shake things up, and some aspects of DC really were more exciting after that. I think for those of us who have a more negative perspective, it's in part things changing and not for the better to our tastes, but maybe a little more objectively, that DC could have done so much more without the continuity havoc it ultimately created (ironic to its purported goals) and seems to never have fully shaken off even after all these years.
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Post by badwolf on Mar 22, 2022 15:22:01 GMT -5
...it got me reading DC regularly. I think you're far from alone in that, and I actually think that's great if that's what clicked for you. Crisis certainly did shake things up, and some aspects of DC really were more exciting after that. I think for those of us who have a more negative perspective, it's in part things changing and not for the better to our tastes, but maybe a little more objectively, that DC could have done so much more without the continuity havoc it ultimately created (ironic to its purported goals) and seems to never have fully shaken off even after all these years. I think the thing it did for me was show me the expanse of the DC universe. For whatever reason, prior to it I just didn't see much beyond the headliners for the most part. But the multitude of obscure or strange characters that appeared, even briefly, made me want to find out more. It showed me that it was just as rich as the Marvel universe I loved.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2022 15:33:04 GMT -5
I think you're far from alone in that, and I actually think that's great if that's what clicked for you. Crisis certainly did shake things up, and some aspects of DC really were more exciting after that. I think for those of us who have a more negative perspective, it's in part things changing and not for the better to our tastes, but maybe a little more objectively, that DC could have done so much more without the continuity havoc it ultimately created (ironic to its purported goals) and seems to never have fully shaken off even after all these years. I think the thing it did for me was show me the expanse of the DC universe. For whatever reason, prior to it I just didn't see much beyond the headliners for the most part. But the multitude of obscure or strange characters that appeared, even briefly, made me want to find out more. It showed me that it was just as rich as the Marvel universe I loved. I think this really shows how it all depends on what frame of reference you are coming from...and of course all of ours are "equal" at the end of the day. Very much appreciate your thoughts on that, I hadn't really considered from that perspective before!
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 22, 2022 15:34:44 GMT -5
Yes, if COIE was the standard for fan-creators, the industry would be in a far stronger position. COIE was and remains one of the best concepts stories DC ever published. Completely unnecessary "fix" to a non-existent problem with a ridiculous plot and sub-par scripting, the only marginal saving grace of which was pretty pictures (which were crammed with too much stuff). On the plus side the first few issues used experimental printing that made it look terrible. But other than that... I will uncharacteristically disagree with you on this. This series was the first of -everyone you know will appear- type of books that was just an amazing easter egg hunt for fans. Yes, if you were a new reader, it won't mean anything to you. And yes, time travel stories don't make sense , and yes, it left a lot of paradox issues, but I loved it. It was the only time you really didn't know who would die. Any one could go at any time.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 22, 2022 17:52:09 GMT -5
Absolutely lame. Talk about, "You can't eat your cake and then still have it too.” Well, Marvel seems to be doing that! I noticed something called Hulkverine recently. The House of No Ideas is out of ideas. Still waiting for Thor-Wolverine Corps or Anti-She Venom, if they haven’t already been done… That's been popular since Gwenpool worked.. there also seems to be a 'what if' series that features Miles Morales as different heroes
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 22, 2022 17:58:17 GMT -5
To play devil's advocate a bit and conceding that some of the ideas are dumb, but what else are they supposed to do? The problem stems from serialized sequential storytelling that never ends spanning decades. How many times can Magneto attack in how many ways before it gets old? How many times and ways can Batman lock up the Joker before it becomes a rehash? Not saying the creators always nail it, but by their nature, it seems superhero comics as we know them are destined to either repeat and get stale or go to increasingly odd places because after 60 years of continuous story without drastically changing the status quo, you eventually touch on everything there is. His quirks and later writing aside, one cool thing Chris Claremont did with the X-Men is change things up. They went from defending their upstate NY prep school from Magneto to fighting aliens in space to hiding from cyborgs in the dessert using magic to be untraceable. Did all of those stories hit for everyone? Absolutely not, but at least it went somewhere different. It's one of two things... American comics chose keeping characters eternally in print with new stories... other shows do this as well (The Simpsons come to mind, or Case Closed... One Piece) Other tell a story with a beginning, middle and end (more popular with Manga, but also many creator owner projects)... sometimes this can be seen as 'leaving money on the table' if you finish the story when people would by more, but then you don't have the creative bankruptcy of tweaking the same sort over and over again... or in other cases...shoehorning a new idea on an old character for marketing purposes. I think I prefer the finite story model, even if I'm the first person to which I had more of my favorites (Like Full Metal Alchemist or Cowboy Bebop).. the eternal shared universe of Marvel and DC seems to have not been able to sustain itself over the long term.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2022 18:03:26 GMT -5
Regarding the finite story model, it’s one reason I’m not really into soaps nowadays. They just go on and on and on…
Now, the comparison with comic universes doesn’t quite work as actors in soaps do age. CORONATION STREET started in 1960 and is still going. Actor William Roache, 89, has been with the show since the beginning. He’d have been 28 when the show started. With the best will in the world, one day he will no longer be with us, unlike a comicbook character that can go on for potentially hundreds of years.
That said, 62 years in one show is a long time (there may be people who have watched it since the beginning). His character, Ken Barlow, has been married more than once. He’s had feuds with neighbours. What more can be done with the character? For those who may have watched it since 1960, it must all feel old hat by now.
And that is why soaps, while not directly comparable to comicbooks, do get tedious. Or, in my case, got tedious a long time ago. Another soap, EASTENDERS, features a character called Ian Beale who has been with the show since it debuted in 1985. I’m sure he’s been married at least 4 times. At least 3 women he has dated have had affairs. So while soaps aren’t quite as eternal as comics, because real actors age, it does feel like there’s a slight comparison to be made about tedious storylines - and an argument in favour of the finite story model.
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Post by Batflunkie on Mar 23, 2022 8:59:32 GMT -5
Yes, if COIE was the standard for fan-creators, the industry would be in a far stronger position. COIE was and remains one of the best concepts stories DC ever published. Completely unnecessary "fix" to a non-existent problem with a ridiculous plot and sub-par scripting, the only marginal saving grace of which was pretty pictures (which were crammed with too much stuff). On the plus side the first few issues used experimental printing that made it look terrible. But other than that... I haven't read Crisis (put down the pitch forks!), but I think it's long term after effects helped change DC for the better story wise (with the exception of All-Star Squadron and Legion Of Super-Heroes). What really hurt the brand I think was all the other Crisis books that they tried putting out after that
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