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Post by lordyam on Nov 9, 2022 22:38:58 GMT -5
Alan Moore is a talented author....but also rather hypocritical (he was willing to screw over Alan Davis and Simon Bissanette, and he initially tried to use chicanery to get around the fact that the greater ormond hospital wouldn't have approved of his take on Peter Pan, and only backed down to avoid getting his ass kicked in court) and his arguments about Superheroes being fascistic is childish.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 10, 2022 6:28:59 GMT -5
Alan Moore is a talented author....but also rather hypocritical (he was willing to screw over Alan Davis and Simon Bissanette, and he initially tried to use chicanery to get around the fact that the greater ormond hospital wouldn't have approved of his take on Peter Pan, and only backed down to avoid getting his ass kicked in court) and his arguments about Superheroes being fascistic is childish. He's a strange guy for sure. He also claimed he would never work for DC again , but took a paycheck for the ABC line which was an imprint of the company.
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Post by commond on Nov 10, 2022 6:55:04 GMT -5
To be fair to Moore, it was a Wildstorm imprint when he started it. He had his misgivings about working for DC, but they promised there would be no editorial interference. A promise they broke.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 10, 2022 9:03:14 GMT -5
Alan Moore is a talented author....but also rather hypocritical (he was willing to screw over Alan Davis and Simon Bissanette, and he initially tried to use chicanery to get around the fact that the greater ormond hospital wouldn't have approved of his take on Peter Pan, and only backed down to avoid getting his ass kicked in court) and his arguments about Superheroes being fascistic is childish. How is the latter childish? Superheroes are vigilantes and vigilante justice pretty much, philosophically, falls on the far-Right of the political spectrum. Therefore, it is not a stretch to say that superheroes represent a fascist approach to order. You may not agree with those views, but they are hardly "childish." Superheroes, as published, represent wish fulfillment and have represented both sides of the political spectrum, in publication history, depending on the views of the storytellers; but, the basic concept of unsanctioned agents imposing their own view of law and order on people is pretty much from the fascist playbook, when you look at the history of the rise of the Nazis and Italian Fascists. The SA acted as vigilantes, attacking those who didn't fit into their narrow view of things. So, Moore's statements aren't completely unfounded. They do ignore the many stories of superheroes acting as agents of social improvement, such as the early Superman stories where he fights slumlords and war profiteers, or the JSA helping to feed starving people. Like many debaters, Moore has selected material that supports his thesis and ignored that which does not fit.
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Post by lordyam on Nov 10, 2022 10:00:59 GMT -5
Fascism has a very specific definition where everything submits to the will of the state. Since superheroes tend to retreat into the shadows and leave things in the hands of mortals, and the people who do try to use their powers to enforce their will and control are always the bad guys they don’t meet the standard. They’re also too individualistic (fascism has no room for private lives, and some of captain americas comments would have gotten him killed in fascist Italy or Nazi germany). Can it be colored to serve fascism? Yes. Are superheroes and inherently fascist concept? No. aclashofheroes.wordpress.com/2017/02/27/superheroes-arent-inherently-fascist-and-we-should-probably-stop-misusing-that-word/
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 10, 2022 12:58:55 GMT -5
Fascism has a very specific definition where everything submits to the will of the state. Since superheroes tend to retreat into the shadows and leave things in the hands of mortals, and the people who do try to use their powers to enforce their will and control are always the bad guys they don’t meet the standard. They’re also too individualistic (fascism has no room for private lives, and some of captain americas comments would have gotten him killed in fascist Italy or Nazi germany). Can it be colored to serve fascism? Yes. Are superheroes and inherently fascist concept? No. aclashofheroes.wordpress.com/2017/02/27/superheroes-arent-inherently-fascist-and-we-should-probably-stop-misusing-that-word/ I'd like to suggest that there's a difference between a capital-F Fascist and a lower-case-f fascist. One need not be a member of a Fascist party to act in a fascistic way, just as one need not be a Democrat to act democratically. Superheroes, like the ancient gods they resemble, act in whatever way they deem necessary to achieve whatever goal they feel they must achieve. Gods and superheroes mete out what they may term justice, but what most others would call revenge or retribution. They operate outside the law, at least the law as defined by liberal democracies, and are assuming the roles of judge, jury and occasionally executioner. Deputized or not, they are vigilantes. Do they belong to a Fascist party? No, but by sublimating the law to themselves, essentially putting themselves in the role of the state, they are acting fascistically. Most superhero comics can't bear up under the weight of this kind of analysis and examination; they were meant as harmless wish-fulfillment fantasies for kids, but like many another art form originating as uncomplicated entertainment and thought to be ephemeral, like Westerns, sitcoms, musicals, and war movies, they have been scrutinized, reshaped and reinvented. Like prisms held up to the light of -- in this case of progress, scientific advances, societal change, etc. -- they reflect something different than they did originally. And we see in them aspects of covert and overt racism, misogyny and yes, fascism. So, no, I wouldn't criticisize Moore for questioning and examining the medium in which he writes.
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Post by lordyam on Nov 10, 2022 14:56:45 GMT -5
Except it doesn’t even meet lower case fascism. The whole idea is that EVERYTHING (the civil service, private life, the courts politics) is subordinate to the state or dear leader. Someone punching a rapist fleeing the scene is not fascist, or else the guy who overpowered Matias Reyes and kept him pinned until the cops came would be fascist. If superheroes were to outright overthrow society and make everything revolve around them you’d have a point, but they don’t, retreating back into private life and leaving trials sentencing and legislation to ordinary humans. (So they don’t even act as judge jury and executioner). In fact the superbeings who do try to make everything revolve around them are portrayed as harmful and dangerous.
There are ELEMENTS in superhero stories that could be seen as possibly supporting fascism depending on the writer but that’s it. Saying the genre itself is inherently fascistic is sloppy sophomoric and yes childish.
My other point was that Alan Moore has gleefully screwed over people when it suited him, so his army of fanboys making excuses for him is tiring
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2022 15:12:17 GMT -5
My other point was that Alan Moore has gleefully screwed over people when it suited him, so his army of fanboys making excuses for him is tiring
I don't see eye to eye-bag with him either.
He had no problem using Alice, Dorothy and Wendy, classic characters from children's story books and turning them into kinky sex objects in Lost Girls.
But use his characters from Watchmen and everyone deserves the electric chair.
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Post by tonebone on Nov 10, 2022 15:21:15 GMT -5
There are ELEMENTS in superhero stories that could be seen as possibly supporting fascism depending on the writer but that’s it. Saying the genre itself is inherently fascistic is sloppy sophomoric and yes childish. True. And I can find just as many examples of supporting democracy, buddhism, free love, censorship, and toad-licking. He sees what he wants to see. Remember, he suffered through what HE considered an honest-to-god fascist regime... the Margaret Thatcher years. <eye roll>
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Post by tonebone on Nov 10, 2022 15:22:40 GMT -5
My other point was that Alan Moore has gleefully screwed over people when it suited him, so his army of fanboys making excuses for him is tiring
I don't see eye to eye-bag with him either.
He had no problem using Alice, Dorothy and Wendy, classic characters from children's story books and turning them into kinky sex objects in Lost Girls.
But use his characters from Watchmen and everyone deserves the electric chair.
Yeah this exact example is what broke me from seeking out his work.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 10, 2022 15:54:33 GMT -5
What Moore did with the classic characters he used in LoEG and Lost Girls was the equivalent of what Andy Warhol did with that famous Marylin Monroe picture: create something new and uncommon based on something he didn't invent.
Had Warhol simply printed pin-up pictures of Marylin for money, he wouldn't have created much; he'd just have exploited the woman's image.
I don't think there was much artistic motivation behind DC's decision to publish more Watchmen stuff, although the creators involved may have given it their best. It was a corporate decision, motivated by profit. I can understand why an author might take umbrage of that, especially when he and DC weren't exactly on good terms to begin with.
Some might say that Moore was overreacting, and in fact that's exactly what some of his collaborators said... but he's nothing if not consistent. He cares more about the integrity of his work than about money, even when said works consist of funnybooks.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 10, 2022 16:32:15 GMT -5
There are ELEMENTS in superhero stories that could be seen as possibly supporting fascism depending on the writer but that’s it. Saying the genre itself is inherently fascistic is sloppy sophomoric and yes childish. True. And I can find just as many examples of supporting democracy, buddhism, free love, censorship, and toad-licking. He sees what he wants to see. In what issue of X-Men did that happen?
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Post by lordyam on Nov 10, 2022 16:33:51 GMT -5
Except he still screwed over Alan Davis….twice. Steve Bissanette and the people who worked with him on 1963 also got screwed.
In any case his analysis of superheroes is sloppy. It also doesn’t help that he said that merely liking superheroes makes you fascist (and yes that is what he said) or that they caused Brexit (the audiences for superhero movies are mostly young people who voted AGAINST it, while Moore’s generation voted for it.) He also refuses to even watch the movies he condemns.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 10, 2022 16:47:17 GMT -5
Alan Moore is a talented author....but also rather hypocritical (he was willing to screw over Alan Davis and Simon Bissanette, and he initially tried to use chicanery to get around the fact that the greater ormond hospital wouldn't have approved of his take on Peter Pan, and only backed down to avoid getting his ass kicked in court) and his arguments about Superheroes being fascistic is childish. He's a strange guy for sure. He also claimed he would never work for DC again , but took a paycheck for the ABC line which was an imprint of the company. With all due respect, it’s not fair. Moore could have quit once the company was sold to his enemy. I heard that he really liked doing the ABC line of books as the reason he looked the other way. This is why it’s important to never say never.
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Post by lordyam on Nov 10, 2022 17:23:03 GMT -5
The other issue is that his arguments boil down to “my characters can’t be used because they’re mine and you must have no talent if you want to use them.” Considering he got his start using others characters and that he had to be talked into making new characters that’s rather rich. The fact he only relented in not publishing lost girls to avoid getting his ass kicked in court also shows that he’s willing to disregard other peoples intentions for their characters.
DC screwed him. That’s bad.
His fans can bleat as much as they want but it doesn’t change that he’s a washed up has been
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