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Post by Batflunkie on Nov 10, 2022 17:50:57 GMT -5
One thing that bothers me about Moore is how down he is on superheroes when nearly half of career has been based around them, riffing them, re-interpreting them, and equating the people who still read or have interest in the genre to being infantile. I think he might of missed the memo about superheroes being the modern day equivalent to greek myths?
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Post by commond on Nov 10, 2022 17:56:06 GMT -5
I don't know about "has been." I'm pretty sure if Moore released a new comic tomorrow it would draw a significant amount of attention. Moore does say some ridiculous things, however, like his recent claim that the popularity of superhero movies led to people voting for Trump.
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Post by badwolf on Nov 10, 2022 18:08:35 GMT -5
One thing that bothers me about Moore is how down he is on superheroes when nearly half of career has been based around them, riffing them, re-interpreting them, and equating the people who still read or have interest in the genre to being infantile. I think he might of missed the memo about superheroes being the modern day equivalent to greek myths? I guess it's not surprising that he and Grant Morrison don't get along. |
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Post by Batflunkie on Nov 10, 2022 18:16:28 GMT -5
One thing that bothers me about Moore is how down he is on superheroes when nearly half of career has been based around them, riffing them, re-interpreting them, and equating the people who still read or have interest in the genre to being infantile. I think he might of missed the memo about superheroes being the modern day equivalent to greek myths? I guess it's not surprising that he and Grant Morrison don't get along. Oh, him and Grant have had their differences since Miracleman. If I remember correctly, Grant was hired on to write a back-up story and Moore basically sent him an angry letter reading something the lines of "if you value your life or career, you'll get the hell off my book." |
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Post by lordyam on Nov 10, 2022 21:45:21 GMT -5
True. And I can find just as many examples of supporting democracy, buddhism, free love, censorship, and toad-licking. He sees what he wants to see. In what issue of X-Men did that happen? His point was that you can find anything you want in superheroes. I already explained how they don't even meet Lower Case fascism seeing as they leave sentencing, politics, civil service and other things to mortals, and how merely punching someone in the process of committing a crime isn't fascist. You basically fall into the trap of "exertion of coercion or will outside the law MUST be fascist" when it's really not (again, the guy who overpowered Matias Reyes would be fascist by your definition.) It comes from not wanting to admit that Alan Moore is full of poo on that score; he's a brilliant writer but he has the following problems 1.) Hypocrisy: He gleefully screwed over Alan Davis TWICE (he refused to let Captain Britain be republished out of a petty grudge with Jim Shooter saying he didn't like Alan Moore's swamp thing (which in turn cost Davis money that he desperately needed); later on he let the Miracleman stuff be republished without letting Davis in....and what makes this petty is that according to Davis they DID chat about it, and Davis said he'd be willing to do it if Alan allowed Captain Britain to be republished in the US.....Moore hung up the phone and never spoke to him again. So this wasn't just miscommunication. He actively and consciously screwed over Alan Davis because of his grudge with Jim Shooter); his refusal to let 1963 be completed has caused several writers to be denied royalty payments, and when it was pointed out that the Greater Ormond Street Hospital wouldn't approve of his take on Wendy he initially tried to argue "oh they don't REALLY own it so I can do whatever I want" (showing that his later relenting was purely to avoid getting his ass kicked in court; otherwise he would have done to them what DC did to him.) He also lied and said they were boycotting his work and trying to ban it when they weren't just to drum up publicity. 2.) Pettiness: Even leaving aside the Alan Davis thing, his refusal in 1963 was because he didn't like Steve Bissanette.....who did a LOT to help him and who's only "crime" was talking about Alan in an interview; Moore took offense but according to Bissanette he passed the interview on to Moore who raised no objections. 3.) Sloppiness: As I mentioned earlier, fascism specifically involves EVERYTHING being suborned to the will of the state or the dear leader. Superheroes by leaving sentencing and political decision making in the hands of non superheroes and generally sticking to their private lives unless it's to take down someone actively causing chaos and committing crimes, do not meet the standard. One could argue that they can be COOPTED by fascists, or that elements can be fascist in the hands of certain writers, but the genre itself is NOT inherently fascist. He also implied that merely liking Superhero movies makes one fascist and caused Brexit and the rise of Trump (when if anything most people who like superhero movies are younger people i.e. the generation that voted AGAINST Trump, while people of Alan's generation were more likely to support him.) He also by his own admission refuses to WATCH the movies he criticizes or read the comics; that's a DEEPLY ignorant take. I tried to read Twilight before I slagged it, but couldn't get past the first page. So no. I am VERY comfortable saying Alan Moore's being childish. And the fact that he has screwed over others or helped screw over others means that I don't really feel much sympathy for the whole Watchmen debacle or for him being made to work for DC again (given that he got people to leave lucrative gigs to work for Robb Liefeld, and those people were hurt when the company went under while Moore escaped consequences, one could easily argue that him being back under DC was karmic justice for helping Liefeld screw over those other creators) |
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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 11, 2022 6:56:15 GMT -5
It's Steve Bissette, not Bissonette.
Cei-U!
Just sayin'!
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 11, 2022 7:30:21 GMT -5
In what issue of X-Men did that happen? His point was that you can find anything you want in superheroes. I already explained how they don't even meet Lower Case fascism seeing as they leave sentencing, politics, civil service and other things to mortals, and how merely punching someone in the process of committing a crime isn't fascist. You basically fall into the trap of "exertion of coercion or will outside the law MUST be fascist" when it's really not (again, the guy who overpowered Matias Reyes would be fascist by your definition.) It comes from not wanting to admit that Alan Moore is full of poo on that score; he's a brilliant writer but he has the following problems 1.) Hypocrisy: He gleefully screwed over Alan Davis TWICE (he refused to let Captain Britain be republished out of a petty grudge with Jim Shooter saying he didn't like Alan Moore's swamp thing (which in turn cost Davis money that he desperately needed); later on he let the Miracleman stuff be republished without letting Davis in....and what makes this petty is that according to Davis they DID chat about it, and Davis said he'd be willing to do it if Alan allowed Captain Britain to be republished in the US.....Moore hung up the phone and never spoke to him again. So this wasn't just miscommunication. He actively and consciously screwed over Alan Davis because of his grudge with Jim Shooter); his refusal to let 1963 be completed has caused several writers to be denied royalty payments, and when it was pointed out that the Greater Ormond Street Hospital wouldn't approve of his take on Wendy he initially tried to argue "oh they don't REALLY own it so I can do whatever I want" (showing that his later relenting was purely to avoid getting his ass kicked in court; otherwise he would have done to them what DC did to him.) He also lied and said they were boycotting his work and trying to ban it when they weren't just to drum up publicity. 2.) Pettiness: Even leaving aside the Alan Davis thing, his refusal in 1963 was because he didn't like Steve Bissanette.....who did a LOT to help him and who's only "crime" was talking about Alan in an interview; Moore took offense but according to Bissanette he passed the interview on to Moore who raised no objections. 3.) Sloppiness: As I mentioned earlier, fascism specifically involves EVERYTHING being suborned to the will of the state or the dear leader. Superheroes by leaving sentencing and political decision making in the hands of non superheroes and generally sticking to their private lives unless it's to take down someone actively causing chaos and committing crimes, do not meet the standard. One could argue that they can be COOPTED by fascists, or that elements can be fascist in the hands of certain writers, but the genre itself is NOT inherently fascist. He also implied that merely liking Superhero movies makes one fascist and caused Brexit and the rise of Trump (when if anything most people who like superhero movies are younger people i.e. the generation that voted AGAINST Trump, while people of Alan's generation were more likely to support him.) He also by his own admission refuses to WATCH the movies he criticizes or read the comics; that's a DEEPLY ignorant take. I tried to read Twilight before I slagged it, but couldn't get past the first page. So no. I am VERY comfortable saying Alan Moore's being childish. And the fact that he has screwed over others or helped screw over others means that I don't really feel much sympathy for the whole Watchmen debacle or for him being made to work for DC again (given that he got people to leave lucrative gigs to work for Robb Liefeld, and those people were hurt when the company went under while Moore escaped consequences, one could easily argue that him being back under DC was karmic justice for helping Liefeld screw over those other creators) it sounds like you are trying to put Moore in the Byrne class of jerk. I will say that business decisions are his to make when it involves his career. I always enjoyed his writing and I can separate his personal life with his artistic work. I understand he fancies himself a warlock or Wiccan and I'm totally opposed to that , but it doesn't make Watchmen or Swamp Thing any less great. I see that you took a few swipes at Liefeld but I understand that Rob was paying double and triple the rates that the big 2 were paying. Moore was realizing a much bigger payday working for Image and so were the artists that left " lucrative gigs" to join him. |
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Post by impulse on Nov 11, 2022 9:20:49 GMT -5
Moore certainly seems to be that type who is so "pure artist" they're a bit eccentric, and he seems to have a fairly high opinion of his work, but the feelings expressed in this thread are so strong that I almost wonder if people posting were personally impacted by the guy.
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Post by Batflunkie on Nov 11, 2022 9:25:23 GMT -5
but the feelings expressed in this thread are so strong that I almost wonder if people posting were personally impacted by the guy. 1963 and America's Best Comics were very big parts of my formative comic book years. It's kind of like watching a favorite uncle slowly slip into nasty habits that make you wonder why you ever liked him in the first place |
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Post by lordyam on Nov 11, 2022 9:31:46 GMT -5
His point was that you can find anything you want in superheroes. I already explained how they don't even meet Lower Case fascism seeing as they leave sentencing, politics, civil service and other things to mortals, and how merely punching someone in the process of committing a crime isn't fascist. You basically fall into the trap of "exertion of coercion or will outside the law MUST be fascist" when it's really not (again, the guy who overpowered Matias Reyes would be fascist by your definition.) It comes from not wanting to admit that Alan Moore is full of poo on that score; he's a brilliant writer but he has the following problems 1.) Hypocrisy: He gleefully screwed over Alan Davis TWICE (he refused to let Captain Britain be republished out of a petty grudge with Jim Shooter saying he didn't like Alan Moore's swamp thing (which in turn cost Davis money that he desperately needed); later on he let the Miracleman stuff be republished without letting Davis in....and what makes this petty is that according to Davis they DID chat about it, and Davis said he'd be willing to do it if Alan allowed Captain Britain to be republished in the US.....Moore hung up the phone and never spoke to him again. So this wasn't just miscommunication. He actively and consciously screwed over Alan Davis because of his grudge with Jim Shooter); his refusal to let 1963 be completed has caused several writers to be denied royalty payments, and when it was pointed out that the Greater Ormond Street Hospital wouldn't approve of his take on Wendy he initially tried to argue "oh they don't REALLY own it so I can do whatever I want" (showing that his later relenting was purely to avoid getting his ass kicked in court; otherwise he would have done to them what DC did to him.) He also lied and said they were boycotting his work and trying to ban it when they weren't just to drum up publicity. 2.) Pettiness: Even leaving aside the Alan Davis thing, his refusal in 1963 was because he didn't like Steve Bissanette.....who did a LOT to help him and who's only "crime" was talking about Alan in an interview; Moore took offense but according to Bissanette he passed the interview on to Moore who raised no objections. 3.) Sloppiness: As I mentioned earlier, fascism specifically involves EVERYTHING being suborned to the will of the state or the dear leader. Superheroes by leaving sentencing and political decision making in the hands of non superheroes and generally sticking to their private lives unless it's to take down someone actively causing chaos and committing crimes, do not meet the standard. One could argue that they can be COOPTED by fascists, or that elements can be fascist in the hands of certain writers, but the genre itself is NOT inherently fascist. He also implied that merely liking Superhero movies makes one fascist and caused Brexit and the rise of Trump (when if anything most people who like superhero movies are younger people i.e. the generation that voted AGAINST Trump, while people of Alan's generation were more likely to support him.) He also by his own admission refuses to WATCH the movies he criticizes or read the comics; that's a DEEPLY ignorant take. I tried to read Twilight before I slagged it, but couldn't get past the first page. So no. I am VERY comfortable saying Alan Moore's being childish. And the fact that he has screwed over others or helped screw over others means that I don't really feel much sympathy for the whole Watchmen debacle or for him being made to work for DC again (given that he got people to leave lucrative gigs to work for Robb Liefeld, and those people were hurt when the company went under while Moore escaped consequences, one could easily argue that him being back under DC was karmic justice for helping Liefeld screw over those other creators) it sounds like you are trying to put Moore in the Byrne class of jerk. I will say that business decisions are his to make when it involves his career. I always enjoyed his writing and I can separate his personal life with his artistic work. I understand he fancies himself a warlock or Wiccan and I'm totally opposed to that , but it doesn't make Watchmen or Swamp Thing any less great. I see that you took a few swipes at Liefeld but I understand that Rob was paying double and triple the rates that the big 2 were paying. Moore was realizing a much bigger payday working for Image and so were the artists that left " lucrative gigs" to join him. What he did to Alan Davis was pretty bad, and considering Image went under fairly quickly the bigger payday didn’t last long. Maybe he wasn’t a monster but he still could be cruel at times, and his army of fans constantly defending him gets irritating. If they were willing to acknowledge he could be kind of a jerk at times that would be one thing. |
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Post by commond on Nov 11, 2022 9:48:55 GMT -5
It's worth noting that Moore released a book last month, so he's been doing publicity for it. Hence, the headlines lately.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 11, 2022 9:54:50 GMT -5
This discussion makes me feel I am making the right decision in never meeting/reading about your heroes. As we are all imperfect humans.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 11, 2022 10:08:19 GMT -5
it sounds like you are trying to put Moore in the Byrne class of jerk. I will say that business decisions are his to make when it involves his career. I always enjoyed his writing and I can separate his personal life with his artistic work. I understand he fancies himself a warlock or Wiccan and I'm totally opposed to that , but it doesn't make Watchmen or Swamp Thing any less great. I see that you took a few swipes at Liefeld but I understand that Rob was paying double and triple the rates that the big 2 were paying. Moore was realizing a much bigger payday working for Image and so were the artists that left " lucrative gigs" to join him. What he did to Alan Davis was pretty bad, and considering Image went under fairly quickly the bigger payday didn’t last long. Maybe he wasn’t a monster but he still could be cruel at times, and his army of fans constantly defending him gets irritating. If they were willing to acknowledge he could be kind of a jerk at times that would be one thing. Sounds like he did some petty stuff to Davis, but I don't know of any business in the world where people don't do that. As for Image going under, they are still a company to this day. If you mean that Moores work dried up, I will respond by saying he worked for Image off and on from 1993-1998 and then worked in various companies for Liefeld Until 1999. As for artists following him and leaving " lucrative " jobs to do so, those artists had to do what was best for themselves. Any book Moore produces is assured to have healthy sales which translates to good money for them. I have never heard of Moore treating fans badly, it seems like he has issues with comic publishers. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 11, 2022 10:21:49 GMT -5
This discussion makes me feel I am making the right decision in never meeting/reading about your heroes. As we are all imperfect humans. I don't know... (well, yes, I agree that everyone is a fallible human!  ) Apart from a very few select cases where someone I looked up to disappointed me, I find that listening at length to people like Rick Veitch, Steve Bissette, Alan Moore, Jim Shooter, Frank Miller et al. helps make them look pretty sympathetic. Some of their opinions I don't share, some of the things they did I wouldn't have, but they come across as pretty reasonable. Everyone is the hero of their own story, but it's not always because we have a distorted view of things; we usually do have reasons to do what we do. And whatever we do, there will be repercussions. |
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Post by impulse on Nov 11, 2022 10:27:42 GMT -5
This discussion makes me feel I am making the right decision in never meeting/reading about your heroes. As we are all imperfect humans. Man, you said it. I might have made this comment here before, but I was extremely disappointed and shocked to learn Orson Scott Card is extremely anti-LGBTQ+ to the point he's written extensively on the topic. Which is SHOCKING to me because I cannot fathom how the person who wrote Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead could have such a profound understanding of empathy for the "other" group and yet do the same himself. It short-circuits my brain. Ignorance is bliss sometimes. |
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) Apart from a very few select cases where someone I looked up to disappointed me, I find that listening at length to people like Rick Veitch, Steve Bissette, Alan Moore, Jim Shooter, Frank Miller et al. helps make them look pretty sympathetic. Some of their opinions I don't share, some of the things they did I wouldn't have, but they come across as pretty reasonable. Everyone is the hero of their own story, but it's not always because we have a distorted view of things; we usually do have reasons to do what we do. And whatever we do, there will be repercussions.