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Post by commond on Apr 16, 2023 6:25:39 GMT -5
The lengths that people are going to in order to dismiss Byrne are impressive. Byrne deserves no credit because other creators had already worked on the books he's most famous for? Okay... Neal Adams didn't create Batman, or Green Arrow, or Green Lantern. He didn't even create Deadman, and fwiw, when he wrote and drew the character it was bizarre. Steranko didn't create Nick Fury or Captain America. Now, Perez probably created better original characters than Byrne but not overwhelmingly so. I think Adams and Steranko were better artists than Byrne, but I would split hairs between Byrne and Perez, as I'm sure most fans in the 70s and 80s did. It doesn't matter that other creators established the books that Byrne earned his notoriety on. We all know that creating original characters wasn't Byrne's strength. He was okay at it, but he didn't create as many iconic characters as other creators. Steranko, I personally feel belongs in a different conversation with different artists. Adams ushered in the Bronze Age of comics, and I feel he's more closely linked to guys like Miller, Perez and Byrne. There is no way for us to poll younger readers, but I wonder who is the most read out of those names -- Adams, Miller, Perez or Byrne. How many people have read the GL/GA run vs Dark Knight Returns vs The Judas Contract vs The Dark Phoenix Saga, for argument's sake. If i were to make a bet, I would probably put Miller one, Byrne two, Adams three, and Perez four.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2023 6:28:40 GMT -5
We all know that creating original characters wasn't Byrne's strength. He was okay at it, but he didn't create as many iconic characters as other creators. For me, when he did create new characters, he really did create new characters. I do like Silver Banshee and Bloodsport, worthy additions to the Superman mythos.
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Post by commond on Apr 16, 2023 6:59:26 GMT -5
Another thing I wanted to add -- we often underestimate younger people's interest in older media and assume that they're only interested in the latest content, and while that may be true to a large extent, there are plenty of examples of younger people consuming older media en masse. They sometimes have strange reactions to older media, however it would be wrong to say they're completely oblivious to it. The current generation has grown up with everything at their finger tips. Unless you like owning the physical object, and from my experience, younger people are fine with digital copies, then it's never been easier to access past content.
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 16, 2023 7:09:04 GMT -5
This all feels a bit revisionist. Anybody who says the Claremont/Byrne X-Men run was not very historically significant is just making things up. Those back issues have consistently been in high demand over the years, it completely set the stage for the mutant explosion that would define Marvel for years to come. And everyone calls it the Clarement/BYRNE run, not the "Claremont" run, let's not skew things. I love the members here but I totally agree with @jaska. X-men was a bi-monthly book that was going to be canceled when Byrne and Austin were recruited . It saved the title. He shaped those stories , it wasn't just his art. He was the idea man behind Alpha Flight and he was the person to make Wolverine the superstar he became. Cockrum had no use for him, he liked Nightcrawler instead. Fantastic Four was probably at its lowest point when he took over writing and drawing it. It became one of Marvels top sellers. The Superman title was revamped on the strength of his name and it started to sell. Pre- crisis, no one was buying the book. It's okay to say you don't like his personality , but you can't ignore his power to sell books in his heyday.
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Post by kirby101 on Apr 16, 2023 9:13:32 GMT -5
In the narratives put forth between tarkintinto and supercat, and as someone who read all this off the stands as an avid comic fan, supercat is far more accurate to my experience at the time. Byrne was one of, if not the biggest name in comics for a time. His run with Claremont is wnat made the X-Men the main title for Marvel, which lasted the next 3 decades. Byrne taking over any title was big news. I don't know how to regard him as an "All Time Great", or how big his influence was. But his footprint then was as big as any artist working, bigger than Perez or Simonson or others. As John Lennon would say, that doesn't mean he was a greater God or man or whatever, just he was more important to the kid's lives.
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Post by Calidore on Apr 16, 2023 9:43:21 GMT -5
A comparison between John Byrne and Molly Ringwald was not at all on my radar, and it's only April.
Can I just say that I enjoy this forum very much?
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Post by tartanphantom on Apr 16, 2023 10:22:49 GMT -5
In the narratives put forth between tarkintinto and supercat, and as someone who read all this off the stands as an avid comic fan, supercat is far more accurate to my experience at the time. Byrne was one of, if not the biggest name in comics for a time. His run with Claremont is wnat made the X-Men the main title for Marvel, which lasted the next 3 decades. Byrne taking over any title was big news. I don't know how to regard him as an "All Time Great", or how big his influence was. But his footprint then was as big as any artist working, bigger than Perez or Simonson or others. As John Lennon would say, that doesn't mean he was a greater God or man or whatever, just he was more important to the kid's lives.
As a self-proclaimed "charter fan" of Rog-2000, I endorse the pro-Byrne viewpoint 100%.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 16, 2023 10:23:18 GMT -5
A comparison between John Byrne and Molly Ringwald was not at all on my radar, and it's only April. Can I just say that I enjoy this forum very much? Just wait until we compare and contrast Art Adams and Xavier Cugat!
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 16, 2023 10:44:50 GMT -5
Jokes aside, in the late 70s and through the 80s, Byrne was THE big name. You saw and heard it everywhere. If it wasn't, then why did people get so grouchy and vocal about his work into the 90s, when he didn't have Terry Austin and Karl Kesel inking? Why did Next Men have such a big following, at the start? Why did he keep getting brought into do projects like the Lost Years stuff?
You can debate the merits of the work of Byrne across his hot period and Adams & Steranko across theirs (and it was a finite period, as they got involved in other things and fandom moved on), but it is subjective and therefore not absolute. What you cannot deny is that Byrne's art sold comics for a significant period of time. Did he originate much? No. Did Adams? The Continuity stuff, but was that ever significant?
Steranko was gone by the time I was reading comics, so I came to him later; but love his stuff. Some of it. I'll take a Nick Fury story over Thongorr or his X-Men issue. Visually, I love his Captain America; but the story is a bit of a mess. Adams was still around, popping up occasionally, when I started reading and much of DC's style was geared towards the Adams look (Irv Novick, Dick Dillin, Mike Grell, etc...) So, I loves me some Adams visuals, from that era. The Continuity material was junk. Badly and bizarrely written, cliched visually, weirdly colored. Steranko staged a really interesting return with Outland.
In the meantime, I loved me some John Byrne, from Charlton up through the 80s and into the early 90s. But, the more he worked at Dark Horse, the less wowed I was, compared to earlier. Muddier art, story seeming to kind of be stuck in place, cranky disposition. I skipped some of his works because others, like OMAC soured me on what he was doing, at the time. Then, he'd do something like Barman/Captain America and I devoured it.
The 80s were Byrne & Perez as the SUPERSTARS, with Miller rising to that status by the end of the decade (Daredevil got him close, then Dark Knight and Year One put him over the top). Those were the names everyone muttered when talking mainstream, while the indies were about The Turtles and Los Bros Hernandez (and Cerebus and Elfquest) and a few other names popping out once in a while. To deny that is to rewrite history. Everything else is down to personal taste. I like Byrnes work through the dawn of the 90s, but I prefer Adams' art and Steranko's design. Between he and Perez, I prefer Perez. However, that is just my preference and it does not devalue Byrne's work.
Some of these kinds of debates seem to hover around the idea that to admit one is good is to devalue the other and to not accept an opinion is to not accept the holder of the opinion. It's an entirely subjective debate. There is no objective criteria by which you can compare art. Therefore, it is just a difference in subjective opinion. No one is ever going to be right or wrong.
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 16, 2023 10:45:11 GMT -5
This all feels a bit revisionist. Anybody who says the Claremont/Byrne X-Men run was not very historically significant is just making things up. Those back issues have consistently been in high demand over the years, it completely set the stage for the mutant explosion that would define Marvel for years to come. And everyone calls it the Clarement/BYRNE run, not the "Claremont" run, let's not skew things. The FF run? One of the most important runs in FF history. The Lee/Kirby run is how the FF title is still defined and most adapted in other media, unless you have examples to counter this opinion. ...and for such "unknown" creators such as Lee & Kirby, would you care to estimate which set of creators' run has been consistently reprinted and referred to as one of the medium's most important: the Lee/Kirby run of the FF, or that of Byrne? As noted above, which one has been adapted in other media more, and why? You're making the argument against Byrne; in selecting no less than three pretty important categories where he is able to be justifiably criticized, there's not much left to recommend about the man. Of the big names from the 1980s, Miller earned his place with a title that needs no reference. Perez earned his by playing a key role in reinvigorating / setting a long-needed correct course across much of DC like few had before or since. Byrne did not do that at Marvel (e.g., he had no bearing on the early 80s revivals of The Amazing Spider-Man during the Romita Jr./ O'Neil / Stern era, the The Avengers during the Stern / Buscema / Hall period, etc.). I was there to read it all, and see its impact on readers. He simply had his run, yet in the case of the X-Men, its lifeblood--that which allowed a sagging concept to continue to a greater level of popularity than ever seen before in its 60s - mid-70s run was provided before Byrne's attachment to the title, so any attempt to shower Byrne with singular distinctions (as if he "made" himself and comics sans any lead-in, or help at all) is not the most honest of assessments.
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Post by jester on Apr 16, 2023 11:12:44 GMT -5
I'm a bit late to the party on this, and I wasn't around in the 80s, so my take is all after the fact, but I think that Byrne absolutely did leave an impact on comics beyond just what he drew. There had been big name artists before him, and writer-artists as well, but along with Miller concurrently, he was arguably the first to rise to the level of superstar success that he did. As acclaimed as they were among fans, Steranko's Nick Fury books were never huge sellers from my understanding, and I doubt that his brief stints as guest artist on X-Men and Captain America elevated sales of those titles substantially. By contrast, anything Byrne was attached to sold and got a lot of attention. That level of creator as selling point ushered in a new era of comics and continues to shape the industry today. And Byrne's art was absolutely influential, certainly on the Image guys who were the next big thing. If that influence hasn't extended to artists working today (and I'm sure that it has to some degree), the same is certainly true of a lot of great Silver and Bronze age artists. And I don't think that means those guys legacies are tarnished.
All of that being said though, I don't agree with comparisions to Adams and Steranko on an influence scale because I don't think the impact of his art was as great as theirs was. Adams and Steranko radically changed people's perceptions of how comics could look. I don't think anyone ever looked at a John Byrne page and said to themselves "I never imagined comics could look like that". I think a better comparison would be someone like John Buscema (who I personally think was a much better artist, but that's besides the point). Buscema and Byrne didn't alter anyone's perceptions of what comics as a medium could do, their stuff was just really well drawn and looked great.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2023 11:34:22 GMT -5
This all feels a bit revisionist. Anybody who says the Claremont/Byrne X-Men run was not very historically significant is just making things up. Those back issues have consistently been in high demand over the years, it completely set the stage for the mutant explosion that would define Marvel for years to come. And everyone calls it the Clarement/BYRNE run, not the "Claremont" run, let's not skew things. The FF run? One of the most important runs in FF history. The Lee/Kirby run is how the FF title is still defined and most adapted in other media, unless you have examples to counter this opinion. ...and for such "unknown" creators such as Lee & Kirby, would you care to estimate which set of creators' run has been consistently reprinted and referred to as one of the medium's most important: the Lee/Kirby run of the FF, or that of Byrne? As noted above, which one has been adapted in other media more, and why? You're making the argument against Byrne; in selecting no less than three pretty important categories where he is able to be justifiably criticized, there's not much left to recommend about the man. Of the big names from the 1980s, Miller earned his place with a title that needs no reference. Perez earned his by playing a key role in reinvigorating / setting a long-needed correct course across much of DC like few had before or since. Byrne did not do that at Marvel (e.g., he had no bearing on the early 80s revivals of The Amazing Spider-Man during the Romita Jr./ O'Neil / Stern era, the The Avengers during the Stern / Buscema / Hall period, etc.). I was there to read it all, and see its impact on readers. He simply had his run, yet in the case of the X-Men, its lifeblood--that which allowed a sagging concept to continue to a greater level of popularity than ever seen before in its 60s - mid-70s run was provided before Byrne's attachment to the title, so any attempt to shower Byrne with singular distinctions (as if he "made" himself and comics sans any lead-in, or help at all) is not the most honest of assessments. We obviously don't share the same viewpoint, but respect for the arguments you've thrown out (and of those others have shared as well). I don't know that I have a lot of fuel left for this topic (I fear I'll become repetitive at this point), but a healthy debate is never a bad thing and the various counterpoints I think have made for good discussion.
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Post by tartanphantom on Apr 16, 2023 11:43:57 GMT -5
We obviously don't share the same viewpoint, but respect for the arguments you've thrown out (and of those others have shared as well). I don't know that I have a lot of fuel left for this topic (I fear I'll become repetitive at this point), but a healthy debate is never a bad thing and the various counterpoints I think have made for good discussion. Now on to the more important age-old dilemmas... like who would win in a fight between Gamera and Godzilla?
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 16, 2023 11:56:00 GMT -5
We obviously don't share the same viewpoint, but respect for the arguments you've thrown out (and of those others have shared as well). I don't know that I have a lot of fuel left for this topic (I fear I'll become repetitive at this point), but a healthy debate is never a bad thing and the various counterpoints I think have made for good discussion. Now on to the more important age-old dilemmas... like who would win in a fight between Gamera and Godzilla? Well, that's a better match-up than Godzilla vs King Kong. Come on: one blows radioactive fire out of his mouth against a very non-fire retardant ape. How is that even a fight?
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 16, 2023 12:15:44 GMT -5
We obviously don't share the same viewpoint, but respect for the arguments you've thrown out (and of those others have shared as well). I don't know that I have a lot of fuel left for this topic (I fear I'll become repetitive at this point), but a healthy debate is never a bad thing and the various counterpoints I think have made for good discussion. Now on to the more important age-old dilemmas... like who would win in a fight between Gamera and Godzilla? Godzilla....he wouldn't be distracted by some pesky kid! Now, Gorgo vs the monster in Frankenstein Conquers the World!
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