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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 18, 2023 21:38:56 GMT -5
It's not just Disney; corporations, politicians, all kinds of organizations and individuals rewriting history to suit their own agenda. Granted, that's what "history" is, as it comes from a select perspective, though you get differing perspectives on many subjects and you can start to distill a sort of truth; but, it feels, these days, that it has become Stalinist, in approach. Orwell understimated the real danger of the world; not so much governments as corporate entities, who grew more powerful than governments. Guess we went from Animal Farm to Animal Board Room. 1984 is actually kind of ironic, as the 80s were the era of the real rise to power of the multi-national conglomerates.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 18, 2023 21:45:07 GMT -5
Did you really expect anything other than revisionist history propaganda from The Mouse? I have a hard time stomaching anything from Disney these days.
No, doesn't mean they shouldn't be called out.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2023 6:20:07 GMT -5
…all kinds of organizations and individuals rewriting history to suit their own agenda. That’s no way to talk about WWE, but you are right, sir!
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 19, 2023 8:12:00 GMT -5
Its not surprising Disney pushes one face and one message. Its the same agenda behind its attempt to sell "May the 4ht Be With You" / "Star Wars Celebrations" in a way that would lead the uninitiated to believe all Star Wars creations are seen and valued equally, or the same with the MCU. Obviously, its all corporate propaganda, and in the Lee doc's case, its the icing on the cake--selling a single story as all-encompassing fact behind a company. That said, I'm certainly not one to jump on the "Stan didn't do anything" train, because I've researched enough and heard firsthand accounts from former Marvel employees to know that kind of attack is the result of hyper-defensive fans of other creators trying to take the offensive, scorched earth position if Lee is recognized for anything significant at all.
There's a middle ground, but someone has to be willing to take it in order to create what would be a fair, accurate historical account of the foundational years of Marvel. Needless to say, that will never come from Disney.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 19, 2023 8:37:14 GMT -5
It's not Stan didn't do anything. It's about who created the characters. Stan wrote the dialog, and that soap opera dialog was a big factor in attracting readers. He was the editor who kept everything together. The connected Universe was more him than anyone else. He was a GREAT PR man (his biggest talent) promoting the Marvel books as exciting and cool. But what he didn't do is create all or most of the characters. They did not originate with him and then he told an artist about them. (as he claims) This is the bullshit story he lied about for most of his career, especially after Kirby and Ditko left. Marvel, whoever the owners, wanted to sell this story, since it meant that the royalties Goodman promised Kirby and Ditko, would never be paid. I have no problem giving Stan credit for the things he did. But he does not get off without criticism for maintaining a self serving lie that hurt the true creators of these characters.
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Post by MDG on Jun 19, 2023 8:49:20 GMT -5
It's not Stan didn't do anything. It's about who created the characters. Stan wrote the dialog, and that soap opera dialog was a big factor in attracting readers. He was the editor who kept everything together. The connected Universe was more him than anyone else. He was a GREAT PR man (his biggest talent) promoting the Marvel books as exciting and cool. But what he didn't do is create all or most of the characters. They did not originate with him and then he told an artist about them. (as he claims) This is the bullshit story he lied about for most of his career, especially after Kirby and Ditko left. Marvel, whoever the owners, wanted to sell this story, since it meant that the royalties Goodman promised Kirby and Ditko, would never be paid. I have no problem giving Stan credit for the things he did. But he does not get off without criticism for maintaining a self serving lie that hurt the true creators of these characters. Lee is in the ironic position of having created "The Marvel Universe" without actually creating most of the elements of the Marvel Universe. There's a lot to be said for taking a couple great and a bunch of fair-to-middling characters and nurturing an editorial environment and tone that allowed them to act as a single universe and appealing brand. Unfortunately, comic fans don't value that kind of creativity.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 19, 2023 10:07:01 GMT -5
It's not Stan didn't do anything. It's about who created the characters. Stan wrote the dialog, and that soap opera dialog was a big factor in attracting readers. He was the editor who kept everything together. The connected Universe was more him than anyone else. He was a GREAT PR man (his biggest talent) promoting the Marvel books as exciting and cool. But what he didn't do is create all or most of the characters. They did not originate with him and then he told an artist about them. (as he claims) This is the bullshit story he lied about for most of his career, especially after Kirby and Ditko left. Marvel, whoever the owners, wanted to sell this story, since it meant that the royalties Goodman promised Kirby and Ditko, would never be paid. I have no problem giving Stan credit for the things he did. But he does not get off without criticism for maintaining a self serving lie that hurt the true creators of these characters. Lee is in the ironic position of having created "The Marvel Universe" without actually creating most of the elements of the Marvel Universe. There's a lot to be said for taking a bunch of a couple great and a bunch of fair-to-middling characters and nurturing an editorial environment and tone that allowed them to act as a single universe and appealing brand. Unfortunately, comic fans don't value that kind of creativity. Comic fans adore Lee. And I have seen the argument that he "made it into what it was" over and over again. I have no problem giving him credit for his editorialship. The problem is he, and Marvel, has given him undeserved credit for doing what he did not do, to the detriment of the artist who did the creating.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 19, 2023 10:43:23 GMT -5
I believe that Lee did more than write the dialogue. He helped shape the ideas.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2023 11:25:38 GMT -5
I remember seeing video of Alan Moore tearing Stan a new one over this, especially over his treatment of Kirby.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Jun 19, 2023 15:49:44 GMT -5
Everything I've read on the subject leads me to believe that Lee was absolutely involved in the creation of many of Marvel's key characters. Let's take Spider-Man for example: the very name Spider-Man was Lee's idea (admittedly, almost certainly inspired by the pulp hero The Spider) and so too was the idea of making him a teenager, rather than an adult, which was more usual for "long underwear characters". Plus, obviously it was Lee's scripting that gave the character his angst ridden personality.
Ditko obviously contributed a ton of design stuff, such as Spidey's costume, web-shooters, spider signal etc, and Jack Kirby also had some input, such as having Peter Parker orphaned and living with an elderly Aunt and Uncle (if memory serves). I think I'm right in saying that Kirby actually drew some pages for the first Spider-Man comic, but Lee rejected them as looking too "superhero-y", which is why Ditko was given the job as artist.
I also kinda suspect that Kirby played up his own involvement in the character's creation in later decades and somewhat tried to minimise and downplay both Lee and Ditko's involvement. However, the few interviews with Stan and Steve from the 60s and early 70s, when memories were still fresh, barely mention Kirby at all in connection with Spider-Man's creation.
Irrespective of all that though, it's clear to anyone who cares to read up on and research about the character's history that Spider-Man was created by three people and that it was almost certainly Lee and Ditko who did the bulk of the heavy lifting.
So yeah...Lee definitely had a hand in creating characters. The idea that it was all Kirby, Ditko, Romita etc just doesn't hold water.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 19, 2023 17:25:21 GMT -5
Jack Kirby's version of Spider-Man was a shamelessly blatant rip-off of the Fly character he and Joe Simon created for Archie, right down to the preteen secret identity and magic ring. I suspect Lee and Goodman rejected it more for legal reasons than for creative ones. Brilliant as Kirby was, he was not above churning out soulless hackwork if it meant putting food on his family's table.
Cei-U! I summon the web-slinging also-ran!
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 19, 2023 17:40:56 GMT -5
Had a hand in and was the sole creator, as he claimed and Disney now endorses, are two very different things. I, and most of those I have read who are trying to get the record straight do not say Lee did nothing. They are saying he had a secondary roll in many of the characters and did not create all of the heroes, as he continued to claim.
One merely has to look at the time line of what Lee created before Kirby and Ditko came to Marvel, what they had created and what was created after they joined to see who was the driving force in creating these.
As I have said, soap opera dialog that caught on with the readers, being editor and keeping it all together and connected, great PR man. But the creator of all those Marvel superheroes and then getting artists to draw his ideas...Bullshit.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,207
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Post by Confessor on Jun 19, 2023 17:53:09 GMT -5
Had a hand in and was the sole creator, as he claimed and Disney now endorses, are two very different things. I don't think anybody here is trying to say that Lee was the sole creator.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 19, 2023 18:26:22 GMT -5
I consider the relationship between Stan and the artists to be like Bob Kane and Jerry Robinson. The artists might have come up with the look, but you need a good writer to fill in details and motivations. Kirby created the Silver Surfer but didn’t flesh out the origin the way Silver Surfer #1 did. look at Kirby’s Fourth world stuff and you can see he created many characters that he didn’t develop further. After Ditko left, Spider-man took off in sales. Ditko had a black and white world and would never have endorsed the nuance that arrived after issue #39.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 19, 2023 18:30:19 GMT -5
Had a hand in and was the sole creator, as he claimed and Disney now endorses, are two very different things. I don't think anybody here is trying to say that Lee was the sole creator. Lee did, and now Disney is repeating the lie.
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