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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 23:14:59 GMT -5
Right, but part of the issue is even as a niche product, they are expensive for what they are from a consumer perspective. Well, that is to say, specifically the 30-ish page monthly floppy format that many here already agree an anachronistic piece of junk is too expensive and not worth the price. Part of the problem is the product hasn't changed much, and many of the changes have been for the worse, e.g. decompressed storytelling vs densely packed stories, etc. I've seen other periodicals that are $15 a pop, but those things are PACKED with content. A monthly floppy is basically the same at best/you have to 6 to get a story at worst. If the true price of a decompressed floppy should be $10 an issue/$60 for a single arc, sign me up for Team Kill the Floppies. Then again, I'm already not buying them, so what do they care what I think. the reason they haven't changed is the long term customer base refused to accept/adopt another format. We even see it pop up here-it's not real comics unless it's a 32 page monthly periodical. Here's the thing-if expectations are based on something divorced from reality, reality isn't going to change, so unless you adapt your expectations to reality, you are going to be constantly disappointed and frustrated because your expectation swill never be met. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2023 7:48:43 GMT -5
I wouldn’t necessarily refuse to accept/adopt another format.
All I’d want is entertainment and value. If a 32-page comic was quarterly, but the tales were enjoyable to me, that’d be fine. If one particular fictional universe wanted to do a 64-page comic that was released every summer (or winter), that’d work for me, too. I don’t necessarily need or want a comic to be monthly. I don’t necessarily need or want a comic to have 32 pages.
It’s not quite the same, but post-pandemic, sci-fi magazine Starburst has shifted from a monthly schedule to quarterly. I bought the May issue. The next issue will be out in August. While I did enjoy the monthly schedule, it has not affected my enjoyment to see it go quarterly. I’d be the same with a fictional publication. If Marvel wants to give Juggernaut his own comic (yes, please!), then provided the writer and artist appeals to me, I wouldn’t care if it was a 32-page monthly or a 45-page quarterly - or even a 100-page special twice a year.
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Post by MDG on Jun 14, 2023 8:51:09 GMT -5
It's interesting that I'll find myself buying a thin indie book for $4.99 to $9.99, especially directly from the creator, where I wouldn't consider paying that for a current Marvel/DC floppy. Part of that is probably the "souvenir" aspect if it's at a show or the expectation that I'm getting a complete entertainment experience for that price.
But, like some folks have already said, comic prices were held artificially low throughout their history, starting w/ page reductions to keep the cost at a dime. In the 80s-early 90s, they were helped by the expectation that most (if not all) current books could be easily sold at a profit as back issues in a few months.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2023 20:04:24 GMT -5
It's interesting that I'll find myself buying a thin indie book for $4.99 to $9.99, especially directly from the creator...
I did that for a while on Patreon with my namesake book, Rags.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 15, 2023 4:58:18 GMT -5
I understand that the price point to pay everyone is thin on comics , and yet, comic fans are willing to pay 20 dollars minimum for kickstarter comics. Can you call that a niche market or is that where long time fans rather spend their money now ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2023 5:57:41 GMT -5
I understand that the price point to pay everyone is thin on comics , and yet, comic fans are willing to pay 20 dollars minimum for kickstarter comics. Can you call that a niche market or is that where long time fans rather spend their money now ? There could be something in that. For me, it’s about what I expect to enjoy. Do I want to spend six quid for two Marvel comics, featuring tie-ins to the latest event? No, but I might spend six quid on a unique independent comic that tells a standalone tale. Hell, I’ll get a credit card out and use it to buy a comic if it really appeals to me. They say nature often finds a way (wasn’t that a quote in Jurassic Park?). Well, comic readers find a way to pay for stuff no matter what - if it appeals. Yes, we have bills to pay, and sometimes we may wait, but we’ll find a way. For anything, really. I broke the bank a week or so ago after ordering the Blu-ray of the 1975 TV series The Invisible Man. It cost £35. And I’m sure I’ll enjoy it (I’ve never seen it). But £35 would have got me 5 Marvel issues, and I don’t feel I’d have wanted to be £35 down for the sake of a publisher that doesn’t really seem to be the House of Ideas anymore. No disrespect to Marvel. And I don’t really want that blanket statement to be taken literally, but whenever I look at upcoming Marvel issues, I’m seeing a lot of spin-offs, revisiting of the well, clones, rehashing of old ideas, etc. There is nothing new under the sun, I know, but £3 for an X-Men comic that’ll probably be titled “Clone of Wolverine: Age of Apocalypse II” isn’t for me. |
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Post by tartanphantom on Jun 15, 2023 7:50:55 GMT -5
I understand that the price point to pay everyone is thin on comics , and yet, comic fans are willing to pay 20 dollars minimum for kickstarter comics. Can you call that a niche market or is that where long time fans rather spend their money now ? There could be something in that. For me, it’s about what I expect to enjoy. Do I want to spend six quid for two Marvel comics, featuring tie-ins to the latest event? No, but I might spend six quid on a unique independent comic that tells a standalone tale. Hell, I’ll get a credit card out and use it to buy a comic if it really appeals to me. They say nature often finds a way (wasn’t that a quote in Jurassic Park?). Well, comic readers find a way to pay for stuff no matter what - if it appeals. Yes, we have bills to pay, and sometimes we may wait, but we’ll find a way. For anything, really. I broke the bank a week or so ago after ordering the Blu-ray of the 1975 TV series The Invisible Man. It cost £35. And I’m sure I’ll enjoy it (I’ve never seen it). But £35 would have got me 5 Marvel issues, and I don’t feel I’d have wanted to be £35 down for the sake of a publisher that doesn’t really seem to be the House of Ideas anymore. No disrespect to Marvel. And I don’t really want that blanket statement to be taken literally, but whenever I look at upcoming Marvel issues, I’m seeing a lot of spin-offs, revisiting of the well, clones, rehashing of old ideas, etc. There is nothing new under the sun, I know, but £3 for an X-Men comic that’ll probably be titled “Clone of Wolverine: Age of Apocalypse II” isn’t for me.
If comics in general are now viewed as a niche market, as @mrp has pointed out with very valid supporting statements, then I don't see a problem spending 20, 25, 30 or more dollars on something very, very "niche" if I so choose.
Reasons?
A) Most of my money is going directly to the creators, and not into some mega-corp who will (eventually) give them an ever-shrinking slice of the pie.
B) Many legacy creators who are known for good work but no longer work in the mainstream are realizing this and jumping into the independent niche, whether via funding platforms or simply offering creator-owned material direct. For example, without these publishing avenues, I doubt that I would have ever gotten a high-quality hardback omnibus of Xenozoic Tales by Mark Schultz. C) I don't generally have to worry about forced marketing inducements such as annual mega-crossovers, uber-limited variant covers, or other mega-marketing schemes. Yes, variant covers are often a thing with platform-funded books, but they are usually offered as a buy-in tier of choice, not a pressure-marketing inducement to the buyer as a "chase book."
D) As platform creators fully face and realize the cost of self-producing and delivering a small-press product, they have a better understanding and appreciation of the importance of producing a quality product. Mainstream creators-for-hire rarely see this facet of the business, and so the whole point of producing quality work is often lost. Example? Our very own Crimebuster , who pours his soul into producing fun books for people to enjoy. In my case, Scott has gone the extra mile more than once to ensure a pleasant experience for me as a purchaser. As a result, he has earned me as a "customer for life", or at least for as long as he chooses to produce a quality product. E) While some platform creators have been around long enough to generate series-publishing success, it is not frequently used for cliffhanger gimmicks, and most individual issues are completely self-contained products. This allows me to leave the support stream at any time if I so choose with some closure. F) I have a tendency to cheer for the underdog.
Of course, there are risks, non-fulfillment being at the top of the list. However, if that becomes a problem, word often gets around quickly and those creators are usually not afforded future 2nd and 3rd chances by project backers. Also, there are sometimes limitations on worldwide distribution due to international shipping barriers such as shipping costs and duty/trade limitations. As a result, if a project is produced in the US platform market, it is often cost-prohibitive to offer it to international backers.
There are other potential risks, but I've backed a multitude of projects on both Kickstarter and Indiegogo, and my overall happiness to disappointment ratio is around 6 to 1. I certainly can't say the same for the current offerings from Marvel or DC.
As driver1980 pointed out, the choice between spending $30 on one quality book of 80-100 pages of my choosing versus spending the same on a half-dozen Marvel corp-crap issues printed on crappy paper with re-hashed rip-offs of legacy characters? It's a no-brainer to me. Your mileage may vary.
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Post by MDG on Jun 15, 2023 9:05:54 GMT -5
If comics in general are now viewed as a niche market, as @mrp has pointed out with very valid supporting statements, then I don't see a problem spending 20, 25, 30 or more dollars on something very, very "niche" if I so choose.
Reasons?
... I'll add to tartanphantom 's very good list that supporting small press creators (at least for me) brings back some of the fun and tribal feeling of going to the LCS before the speculator boom. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 15, 2023 9:18:55 GMT -5
I understand that the price point to pay everyone is thin on comics , and yet, comic fans are willing to pay 20 dollars minimum for kickstarter comics. Can you call that a niche market or is that where long time fans rather spend their money now ? Look at the number of people who are backing those Kickstarters. It's seldom more than the low hundreds. It is the very definition of niche. Even known old-time creators like Tim Truman, Karl Kesel and John Ostrander rarely break 1000 backers. Comics have basically adopted the "Franklin Mint" business model. They are a very limited run item, marketed more as collectibles than as entertainment and sold through limited access forums. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2023 11:08:30 GMT -5
If comics in general are now viewed as a niche market, as @mrp has pointed out with very valid supporting statements, then I don't see a problem spending 20, 25, 30 or more dollars on something very, very "niche" if I so choose.
Reasons?
A) Most of my money is going directly to the creators, and not into some mega-corp who will (eventually) give them an ever-shrinking slice of the pie.
B) Many legacy creators who are known for good work but no longer work in the mainstream are realizing this and jumping into the independent niche, whether via funding platforms or simply offering creator-owned material direct. For example, without these publishing avenues, I doubt that I would have ever gotten a high-quality hardback omnibus of Xenozoic Tales by Mark Schultz. C) I don't generally have to worry about forced marketing inducements such as annual mega-crossovers, uber-limited variant covers, or other mega-marketing schemes. Yes, variant covers are often a thing with platform-funded books, but they are usually offered as a buy-in tier of choice, not a pressure-marketing inducement to the buyer as a "chase book."
D) As platform creators fully face and realize the cost of self-producing and delivering a small-press product, they have a better understanding and appreciation of the importance of producing a quality product. Mainstream creators-for-hire rarely see this facet of the business, and so the whole point of producing quality work is often lost. Example? Our very own Crimebuster , who pours his soul into producing fun books for people to enjoy. In my case, Scott has gone the extra mile more than once to ensure a pleasant experience for me as a purchaser. As a result, he has earned me as a "customer for life", or at least for as long as he chooses to produce a quality product. E) While some platform creators have been around long enough to generate series-publishing success, it is not frequently used for cliffhanger gimmicks, and most individual issues are completely self-contained products. This allows me to leave the support stream at any time if I so choose with some closure. F) I have a tendency to cheer for the underdog.
I'd add one more reason....scarcity. The Patreon produced Rags, for example, only had a print run of a few hundred copies, with some printings being 50 or less. If the series gets optioned, these are going to get hot.....
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 18, 2023 11:33:53 GMT -5
The new Disney+ Doc on Stan Lee is as full of shit as "The Man" himself was. There, I said it.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 18, 2023 17:12:42 GMT -5
The new Disney+ Doc on Stan Lee is as full of shit as "The Man" himself was. There, I said it. Kind of like saying a political ad is biased and filled with half-truths and outright lies. Same difference, different forum. I didn't expect anything less and the fact that, as someone noted, they didn't even talk to his living brother, says volumes. The illustrated memoir he did with Colleen Doran was no better and Roy Thomas had to keep him on the straight and narrow with that verbal history he did of Marvel, with the book and sound chips. It's no different than the various propaganda pieces that Disney has done about Walt, downplaying guys like Ub Iwerks and the various directors and animators, not to mention the hatchet job they did on Charles Perrault and other storytellers. There is a great rant from Harlan Ellison, about what a pack of lies Saving Mr Banks was. |
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 18, 2023 17:15:57 GMT -5
The new Disney+ Doc on Stan Lee is as full of shit as "The Man" himself was. There, I said it. Care to elaborate? |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 18, 2023 20:11:00 GMT -5
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Post by tartanphantom on Jun 18, 2023 21:23:01 GMT -5
Did you really expect anything other than revisionist history propaganda from The Mouse? I have a hard time stomaching anything from Disney these days.
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