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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 22, 2023 12:51:49 GMT -5
I take anything connected to Groth with a factory of salt. He was an unscrupulous lowlife, IMO. True, but so are most of the other publishers in the business. He has promoted some quality work and most of his mainstream bashing was a gimmick to seem like an outsider, for his audience. Meanwhile, he celebrates the mainstream with other things. The Comics Journal ripped DC and Marvel a new one, every issue, while Amazing Heroes promoted their latest work. He did books featuring the work of John Byrne and other Marvel people. He was a fan, like everyone else, and a hustler, just like Stan, cater to his audience. Still publishes some great history works and reprints some really great quality comics, though. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 22, 2023 14:39:32 GMT -5
You say he’s a hustler like the rest. , but he purposely set people against each other. That’s not okay in my book. He bashed mainstream comics and then sold porno comics. F him.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2023 15:02:53 GMT -5
You say he’s a hustler like the rest. , but he purposely set people against each other. That’s not okay on my book. He bashed mainstream comics and then sold porno comics. F him. Hmm without the name attached, sounds like Martin Goodman. -M |
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Post by MWGallaher on Jun 22, 2023 19:24:52 GMT -5
On second thought, I believe I'll step out of this one! I like to debate a little too much, but I don't consider myself to be a very persuasive person. I enjoy trying to piece together information, and it's fun to try to figure out what might have been going on behind the scenes and why people interpret things differently than I do, and I want to keep it fun!
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Post by commond on Jun 22, 2023 19:42:40 GMT -5
There are two physical copies of Fantastic Four synopses that I'm aware of, one for the first issue and a partial synopsis for issue #8. Naturally, there are a bunch of people who think the first issue synopsis is fake --- link |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 22, 2023 21:41:42 GMT -5
I guess this is why these days any new character is considered as having been created by the writer and artist.
I think Kirby was amazingly creative, but alot of his solo stuff doesn't really hang together as a story... almost like he had so many ideas he just couldn't finish one before moving to the next.
I consider Stan Lee the greatest promoter of all time this side of PT Barnum. When he tried to write later, even if I do have a soft spot for Ravage, it is not FF or Spider-Man.
Ditko's Spidey is a bit too weird for me for the most part, but it sure did start something.
I'm very happy to consider the beginnings of the Marvel universe a collaborative effort that will probably never be re-created. I don't need any specifics of who figured out each little bit.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 22, 2023 21:57:00 GMT -5
You say he’s a hustler like the rest. , but he purposely set people against each other. That’s not okay in my book. He bashed mainstream comics and then sold porno comics. F him. The other publishers did that, too, to keep artists and writers from uniting against them. Look at the DC writer's purge. Other publishers put out the equivalent of porn, aside from their main books. There are actually some decent books in the Eros line, beyond cheap sex. meanwhile, DC ad Marvel engaged in misogynistic titillation, constantly. Which is worse, the one who is honest about what he is selling or the one is is basically doing the same thing, but without genitals depicted? Given the level of violence in some of DC and Marvel books, a little sex isn't such a bad thing. At least it isn't punching holes through people as entertainment. I'm no Groth defender, because I always found him to be a pompous hypocrite; but, by the same token, he wasn't the worst of the bunch among the publishers and editors out there. It's always been a dirty business and it still is. Corporations just turned it into an art form. The old mob-connected guys were a bit more open about being crooks. |
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Post by Batflunkie on Jun 23, 2023 18:13:36 GMT -5
I think Kirby was amazingly creative, but alot of his solo stuff doesn't really hang together as a story... almost like he had so many ideas he just couldn't finish one before moving to the next. A lot of people like his 70's Cap and yeah, while it was interesting, it felt too derivative of OMAC, which I loved even if the dialogue was as natural as clown at funeral sometimes. I don't feel this way about The Demon however, I think while he didn't really have much of passion for the macabre, he did throw his whole being into it I consider Stan Lee the greatest promoter of all time this side of PT Barnum. When he tried to write later, even if I do have a soft spot for Ravage, it is not FF or Spider-Man. Ditko's Spidey is a bit too weird for me for the most part, but it sure did start something. I don't like Spider-Man all that much either (tried about sixty some odd issues of FF before I finally came to the conclusion that it wasn't my cup of tea. Also, as much as I wanted to check out the seventies iteration, you could not pay me any amount of money to get me to read anything Gerry Conway put to a menagerie of trained monkeys on typewriters), but I do respect Ditko's vision of trying to make the book horror inspired as much as Stan tried to pull the title away from that kind of morbid dreariness. I remember reading somewhere that Dikto intended for Peter to later get revenge on Flash Thompson and his clique? |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 23, 2023 20:12:02 GMT -5
I think Kirby was amazingly creative, but alot of his solo stuff doesn't really hang together as a story... almost like he had so many ideas he just couldn't finish one before moving to the next. A lot of people like his 70's Cap and yeah, while it was interesting, it felt too derivative of OMAC, which I loved even if the dialogue was as natural as clown at funeral sometimes. I don't feel this way about The Demon however, I think while he didn't really have much of passion for the macabre, he did throw his whole being into it I consider Stan Lee the greatest promoter of all time this side of PT Barnum. When he tried to write later, even if I do have a soft spot for Ravage, it is not FF or Spider-Man. Ditko's Spidey is a bit too weird for me for the most part, but it sure did start something. I don't like Spider-Man all that much either (tried about sixty some odd issues of FF before I finally came to the conclusion that it wasn't my cup of tea. Also, as much as I wanted to check out the seventies iteration, you could not pay me any amount of money to get me to read anything Gerry Conway put to a menagerie of trained monkeys on typewriters), but I do respect Ditko's vision of trying to make the book horror inspired as much as Stan tried to pull the title away from that kind of morbid dreariness. I remember reading somewhere that Dikto intended for Peter to later get revenge on Flash Thompson and his clique? OMAC was originally a future Captain America concept; hence the similarities. |
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 23, 2023 21:15:55 GMT -5
A lot of people like his 70's Cap I cannot say I was one of the readers supporting that. In a decade of Captain America stories taking the harder edge in dealing with questioning the patriotic idea, racism / new fascism in America, disillusionment with the government, etc., Kirby's CA run felt completely detached from the steady, evolutionary journey Cap (and the Falcon) took in that decade. |
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Post by berkley on Jun 24, 2023 16:03:26 GMT -5
I've been re-reading the early issues of Eightball and there's a funny caricature of Gary Groth in one of the stories in #3, one that could be enjoyed by detractors and supporters (or neutrals) alike. I don't have any particular opinion on the guy myself. I like that he helped get people like Clowes and the Hernandezes published and that he supported the Kirbys in their struggle for creators' rights but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he were an arsehole as a person, as a lot of these go-getter types are.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 24, 2023 16:21:18 GMT -5
I've been re-reading the early issues of Eightball and there's a funny caricature of Gary Groth in one of the stories in #3, one that could be enjoyed by detractors and supporters (or neutrals) alike. I don't have any particular opinion on the guy myself. I like that he helped get people like Clowes and the Hernandezes published and that he supported the Kirbys in their struggle for creators' rights but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he were an arsehole as a person, as a lot of these go-getter types are. I had an encounter with Gary Groth in the early '90s you may find illuminating (and more than a little baffling) At the time, I was a member of the Tacoma Writers' Club, a small group of amateur wordsmiths who met weekly at a branch of the Tacoma Public Library. I was asked to recruit a judge for our annual Short Story contest and, on a whim, asked Groth. To my surprise, he said yes. When he attended the meeting where the winner was to be announced, he proved to be respectful and encouraging, providing constructive, insightful criticism to the entrants (I wasn't one of them) that was nothing like the take-no-prisoners approach he used in TCJ/. To this day I have trouble reconciling the Journal's savagely anti-mainstream publisher with the soft-spoken gentleman who judged our contest.
Cei-U! I summon the enigmatic anecdote!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2023 16:56:28 GMT -5
Beware of fake Incredible Hulk 181s.....people who create these forgeries should be hanged and quartered.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 27, 2023 18:08:54 GMT -5
Beware of fake Incredible Hulk 181s.....people who create these forgeries should be hanged and quartered.
With all the amazing tech around these days, I’m surprised it took so long. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 28, 2023 5:56:08 GMT -5
Beware of fake Incredible Hulk 181s.....people who create these forgeries should be hanged and quartered.
The pages are really glossy. It's particularly striking when they compare the fake to an actual old comic. |
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