|
Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 18, 2024 13:41:48 GMT -5
I would love to see some alternative universe where Marvel and/or DC dropped down to, say 5 titles a week. Would people just buy everything? Would they be mad? How would it effect sales, would those books sell more, because that's all there is?
If I could buy all of Marvel's output for $20 a week, I'd probably do it... especially if the stories actually hung together reasonably well like the old days of actual continuity and references to old stories.
I mean, people get all exciting when they do stuff like the Ultimate universe, right? (of course it doesn't last, but...) They never went all the way with making that the only game in town though.
Spider-Man in Avengers never bothered me... while he professes to be a loner, he also is the king of team ups, and sure is a social butterfly, and is always front and center in the big event. I think it makes alot of sense for him to be there. That story where he tried to join because he realized there was a pay check? One of my favorites, and , IMO, that was the time to pull the trigger. I think they just wanted him separate for marketing.
Wolverine annoyed the crap out of me. MULTIPLE stories exist where the main conflict is whether or not its ok to kill the bad guys... one of which with Hawkeye happened WHILE WOLVERINE was on the team.
I know, Cap was in WWII and all, but that's different. (incidently, Captain America knowing Wolverine in the 40s also annoys me... the world isn't so small).
|
|
|
Post by Batflunkie on Sept 18, 2024 18:09:48 GMT -5
I followed wrestling as a teenager and have occasionally watched PPV's since. I couldn't imagine watching a modern wrestle mania, though... that's half a bloody weekend! RAW actually made the news this week for dropping back to 2 hours as fans were put off by the length. Why the powers that be in most industries don't agree less is ever more, I'm not sure. Leading me to my next statement.... I know it’s as old as the hills because the likes of Superman and Batman always had multiple titles, but it just felt like too much during the Triangle Era - when they added Superman: The Man of Tomorrow, I just wondered why anyone would want 52 weeks of Superman a year (a member here, whose posts always make me smile, would probably question why we need *any* Superman comics a year). I know it’s about what sells. If Marvel could sell 4 or 5 Doctor Strange books a month, I know they would. If the market can support a lot of Deadpool or Spidey titles, I get it. But quality over quantity is preferable for me personally; of course, I know they’re not producing comics solely for me. As popular as Moon Knight has gotten recently, I'm surprised that Marvel's been relatively modest with the output (Black, White, and Blood, City Of The Dead, and a few one shots) probably knowing that while the book is selling good, it's still kind of a c-list book that can't really afford to be stretched thin I was also surprised a year or so ago that Captain America had two mainline books, one for Sam and one for Steve. IDK, as much as I love Cap, it's not a well that I want to see run dry, but the team did a good job I think Also, as much as I love Green Lantern, it doesn't need to have a bajillion on-goings like it did during the 00's and the 10's
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Sept 19, 2024 16:38:07 GMT -5
If he sells the book, then mission accomplished, that's the real primary objective, and not the 'over-exposure'. The new Deadpool movie wouldn't have been as big of a hit without him.
Is it sustainable? But then, have comics ever cared about sustainability vs what sells lots for the next two months? I mean, yes? Wolverine and Deadpool having been massively popular and selling like crazy for like 30 years.
|
|
|
Post by rich on Sept 19, 2024 16:52:44 GMT -5
Is it sustainable? But then, have comics ever cared about sustainability vs what sells lots for the next two months? I mean, yes? Wolverine and Deadpool having been massively popular and selling like crazy for like 30 years. We'll have to agree to disagree. If Marvel fail to make people care about their other characters, books without Wolverine or Deadpool will struggle.
|
|
|
Post by Batflunkie on Sept 19, 2024 18:02:11 GMT -5
Is it sustainable? But then, have comics ever cared about sustainability vs what sells lots for the next two months? I mean, yes? Wolverine and Deadpool having been massively popular and selling like crazy for like 30 years. Impulse, not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I'd struggle to name any modern new character that's actually selling books these days outside of maybe Miles. To borrow wrestling jargon, they don't seem like they're very much interested in "building new stars". And when they do, the lack of enthusiasm in making the property seems to speak for itself
|
|
|
Post by MRPs_Missives on Sept 19, 2024 18:27:02 GMT -5
I mean, yes? Wolverine and Deadpool having been massively popular and selling like crazy for like 30 years. Impulse, not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I'd struggle to name any modern new character that's actually selling books these days outside of maybe Miles. To borrow wrestling jargon, they don't seem like they're very much interested in "building new stars". And when they do, the lack of enthusiasm in making the property seems to speak for itself What creator in their right mind is going to create new characters on a work for hire contract where they own nothing? And the big 2 aren't doing creator participation in any real sense as incentive for creators to fork over what could be life changing money if they get optioned for less than pennies on the dollar from the big 2? -M
|
|
|
Post by Batflunkie on Sept 19, 2024 18:48:48 GMT -5
Impulse, not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I'd struggle to name any modern new character that's actually selling books these days outside of maybe Miles. To borrow wrestling jargon, they don't seem like they're very much interested in "building new stars". And when they do, the lack of enthusiasm in making the property seems to speak for itself What creator in their right mind is going to create new characters on a work for hire contract where they own nothing? And the big 2 aren't doing creator participation in any real sense as incentive for creators to fork over what could be life changing money if they get optioned for less than pennies on the dollar from the big 2? Fair point. Does DC even do creator owned stuff anymore since Vertigo dissolved?
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Sept 19, 2024 19:26:35 GMT -5
Maybe I’m missing a nuance of your point, but I don’t get the counter argument. Wolverine and Deadpool sell comics. Marvel keeps putting them in books because people buy them. It’s not a fad, it’s been working for decades. People are already not buying books with other characters.
Perhaps there’s some theoretical upper limit, but it’s exceeding two decades now let alone two months.
I’m genuinely not trying to be argumentative. Marvel’s goal is to sell comics. Putting these characters in comics sells them. It seems to be having the desired effect.
Does it get tiresome as a reader? Sure, it can, But hey, it keeps the lights on.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 19, 2024 21:20:20 GMT -5
Impulse, not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I'd struggle to name any modern new character that's actually selling books these days outside of maybe Miles. To borrow wrestling jargon, they don't seem like they're very much interested in "building new stars". And when they do, the lack of enthusiasm in making the property seems to speak for itself What creator in their right mind is going to create new characters on a work for hire contract where they own nothing? And the big 2 aren't doing creator participation in any real sense as incentive for creators to fork over what could be life changing money if they get optioned for less than pennies on the dollar from the big 2? -M When WAS the last actual new character in Marvel and DC? There are some popular derivative characters (Kamala Khan at Marvel, Jon Kent at DC) but even they are both 10+ years old now. Kong Kenan maybe? (Still derivative) DC tried a few things not that long ago with a diversity goal (I read the Vigil.. not the other ones), but those didn't last or make an impact) Marvel had that manga-ish series (Zero, was it) but that seemed really generic. No reason anyone with a good idea would give it to Disney or Time/Warner. It feels like the big 2 are now where you go to get enough rep to convince Image/IDW/Dark Horse to let you write your REAL idea and hope you're the next Walking Dead
|
|
|
Post by MRPs_Missives on Sept 19, 2024 22:19:49 GMT -5
What creator in their right mind is going to create new characters on a work for hire contract where they own nothing? And the big 2 aren't doing creator participation in any real sense as incentive for creators to fork over what could be life changing money if they get optioned for less than pennies on the dollar from the big 2? -M When WAS the last actual new character in Marvel and DC? There are some popular derivative characters (Kamala Khan at Marvel, Jon Kent at DC) but even they are both 10+ years old now. Kong Kenan maybe? (Still derivative) DC tried a few things not that long ago with a diversity goal (I read the Vigil.. not the other ones), but those didn't last or make an impact) Marvel had that manga-ish series (Zero, was it) but that seemed really generic. No reason anyone with a good idea would give it to Disney or Time/Warner. It feels like the big 2 are now where you go to get enough rep to convince Image/IDW/Dark Horse to let you write your REAL idea and hope you're the next Walking Dead Marvel and DC are where you go to get the best page rates (and even their page rates have not kept up with inflation) if you are trying to make a living making comics and don't have gigs outside comics or enough of a back catalog where you get residuals to support yourself, especially artists who can usually only do 1 book a month. It's steady work, you don't have to worry about not getting paid by a fly by night publisher or a company with cash flow issues (looking at you IDW) and there's enough of an editorial and production staff in place you don't have to take on all the extra work of actually getting the book made and to market yourself. I'm putting the rest of my post behind spoilers. Longtime forum members have seen most of it before, so I will offer to spare them having to see it again. Those who haven't seen it who don't want to look at things like the business realities of comics instead of looking at comics through happy nostalgia glasses can't simply skip over it without clicking on the spoiler tag and be on their way.
Image doesn't pay page rates (some of the studios within Image like Top Cow might, but not Image itself. It pays creators on the back end (i.e. a percentage agreed upon in the contract after the book is published and sold). Dark Horse, BOOM! do page rates and offer creator participation and ownership options (with various different levels of strings/clauses in their contracts, but their page rates are typically lower than Marvel and DC because they are smaller publishers. IDW is in the news about page rates lately as one of the internal memos was leaked from their new publisher saying they only want to pay $200 per page total to all creatives involved (i.e. $200 per page to split between the writer, penciller, inker, letterer, colorist and editor combined), especially on licensed books. The publisher also hints that if creators are paid less but offered royalties, they will be more incentivized to promote their books and IDW can save on marketing costs as well.
James Tynion IV made a conscious effort to create new characters for the Batman mythos when he was on the book yielding characters like Punchline and Clownhunter, Bendis did Naomi, etc. but these were creators who all had steady income streams outside the books they are doing for Marvel/DC and had the luxury of doing so. None of those characters seemed to remain prominent after the writer's tenure on them ended either (though Punchline was just the main antagonist in the recent Gotham City Sirens book DC did that wrapped up this month.
There's a catch 22 at work as well-comic fans seem to perceive any new characters created by a creator for the big 2 as a "Mary Sue" or being part of some woke agenda is the character isn't a straight white male (see all the online reaction to Naomi) and reject the character from the time it is announced and never actually buy the characters in print. Especially if they see the new character as getting attention or marketing at the expense of one of their beloved characters who isn't being featured currently or doesn't have their own book. It's actually a very hostile environment in which to try to create new characters right now, especially since the bulk of marketing anything in comics falls on the shoulders of the creators, not the publishers, and social media is the primary venue to try to promote it and a cesspool of negativity fueled by the toxic segment of fandom. And any book is liable to be labelled a cash grab if it doesn't fit within the narrow band of "acceptable" books to that fanbase.
The biggest problem is that there are simply not enough comic readers out there to make a mass market publishing plan centered on periodicals sustainable, and what readership does exist is mostly nostalgia fueled and focused on existing favorites in terms of characters and titles. Some have suggested the cut down the books they offer to focus on quality not quantity here as well. If they make fewer books, they will get fewer sales because the customer base is so small (and we have had the discussion of why customer base entry began the moment that newsstands decided not to carry comics any more and the comic industry chose to focus on the direct market with it's niche destination based shops as their primary outlet and did nothing to create a new discovery market to replace newsstands and thus ensured they would no longer draw in enough new readers to replace those who aged out, lost interest or died off in the long run). On top of that, they failed to keep up with market changes where the print periodical became a dinosaur format that lost its appeal to the mass market as a whole (not just comics) and only appealed as a nostalgia product to those who grew up with it, a huge barrier to drawing new customers despite the popularity of the content in other formats. Fewer books (and no variants) will simply result in fewer sales to the existing customer base each month. And since the balance of economy of scale is already working against publishers because of the small size of print runs (one of the reasons you do variants is to raise print run totals and keep economy of scale at bay to keep per unit costs manageable), which keeps margins small, you have to move volumes of units to make a line profitable. Moving fewer units also hurts your retail partners who are also working on tiny margins. (Those who have been here a while have seen me remind folks of this before but that $4 comic only nets the publisher $1. Publisher sells it to distributor for $1, who sells it to retailer for $2, who sells it at $4 but also pays shipping on it eating into their margins...some variables for discount % apply but that's the principle of how the distribution market works).
Reducing the size of the lines would mean lower profitability for the line as a whole coupled with a loss of jobs as there are fewer books to make-lower profits and higher costs mean page rates likely have to be cut, which would lead to talent flight to other industries so no it would not result in better books as your best talent would leave the field. Fewer books to sell also means fewer sales for your retailers and since so many comic retailers are barely scraping buy would result in the closure of many shops shrinking your outlets, and reducing your overall sales in the process, which will then also move economy of scale further against you raising per unit costs even more. The only way to combat that is to get an influx of new readers, except the main barrier to that is you have no discovery market for new readers to fond your product (and losing what outlets you have when shops close even though they are not discovery markets to begin with) and you are stuck with a format that has no traction or appeal in the mass market for you to possibly be sold in a place where new readers might be. Young adult graphic novels have been one of the biggest growth markets in publishing over the last decade, but periodicals are not part of that market model, and thus Marvel and DC has missed out on most of the growth of new readers that have been created with it (DC has had some minor success there with books tailored specifically for the youth market but not with their mainline though the compact editions they are rolling out seem like they might get some traction in that market).
The biggest issue as I see it (in my unprofessional personal perspective) is that where comic publishers need to go to find growth and new readers is somewhere existing long term comic readers do not want to go. They are nostalgic readers and want to read the characters they grew up with in the format they discovered comics in and don't want to let go of that. The problem is those readers have been aging out, dying off or changing life circumstances for the last 30 years and there has not been new customers coming in to take their place. Potential new readers don't want that format, don't want to have to go to a destination niche shop to find their books and don't want to wait a month or more between tiny installments of the story. Traditional comic publishers are caught in the middle-it's not cost effective to do 2 lines to try to please both, and picking one of the other leaves a customer base too small now to be sustainable.
Periodical comics keep getting more expensive for a number of reasons-in addition to printing, paper and salary costs rising, the smaller the print runs and the fewer books you print overall, the more economy of scale works against you to increase per unit cost for printing, making margins smaller and smaller. Small press books done outside traditional distribution (crowd-funding con sales etc.) are now reaching the $10-15 per issue mark because of small print runs and high per unit costs. Direct market books are headed into that territory, in the not too distant future (bigger page count issues are already hitting the $7.00 and $9.99 mark in the direct market) which will cause the customer base to shrink more (those prices go against the nostalgic sensibilities of long-term readers who want to pay mass market prices even though comics have become a niche market product).
Fans tend not to give a crap about any of this though as they do not like to think of comics as a business. They don't want to think of creators being horridly underpaid or having their creations essentially stolen from them and exploited for millions of which they never saw a penny. They just want their fix, and that cognitive dissonance between those twe perspectives creates a lot of unrealistic expectations, which leads to a lot of disappointments and bitterness.
-M
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Sept 20, 2024 0:31:23 GMT -5
EDIT: I'm done in this thread. Whatever.
I've been asking myself whether or not I should say anything to this and perhaps I'm just going to make things worse, but: just in case it was my post that prompted Supercat's edit here, I sincerely apologise if I said anything offensive. I really did have that idea for a thread quite a long time ago, it wasn't made up as a snide crack at Supercat's original post, which raised an entirely legitimate question. Since I didn't feel sure I could make it work but still felt some affection for the idea, I took the opportunity of the general subject of 'Like' coming up to share it.
I had another idea too for a "Likes"-related joke-thread: "I Have Discovered that I Can Like My Own Posts".
edit: which you actually can, as I just checked - I almost thought I must have dreamt that, but no!
|
|
|
Post by Yasotay on Sept 20, 2024 1:48:57 GMT -5
When WAS the last actual new character in Marvel and DC? There are some popular derivative characters (Kamala Khan at Marvel, Jon Kent at DC) but even they are both 10+ years old now. Kong Kenan maybe? (Still derivative) DC tried a few things not that long ago with a diversity goal (I read the Vigil.. not the other ones), but those didn't last or make an impact) Marvel had that manga-ish series (Zero, was it) but that seemed really generic. No reason anyone with a good idea would give it to Disney or Time/Warner. It feels like the big 2 are now where you go to get enough rep to convince Image/IDW/Dark Horse to let you write your REAL idea and hope you're the next Walking Dead Marvel and DC are where you go to get the best page rates (and even their page rates have not kept up with inflation) if you are trying to make a living making comics and don't have gigs outside comics or enough of a back catalog where you get residuals to support yourself, especially artists who can usually only do 1 book a month. It's steady work, you don't have to worry about not getting paid by a fly by night publisher or a company with cash flow issues (looking at you IDW) and there enough of an editorial and production staff in place you don't have to take on all the extra work of actually getting the book made and to market yourself. I'm putting the rest of my post behind spoilers. Longtime forum members have seen most of it before, so I will offer to spare them having to see it again. Those who haven't seen it who don't want to look at things like the business realities of comics instead of looking at comics through happy nostalgia glasses can't simply skip over it without clicking on the spoiler tag and be on their way.
Image doesn't pay page rates (some of the studios within Image like Top Cow might, but not Image itself. It pays creators on the back end (i.e. a percentage agreed upon in the contract after the book is published and sold). Dark Horse, BOOM! do page rates and offer creator participation and ownership options (with various different levels of strings/clauses in their contracts, but their page rates are typically lower than Marvel and DC because they are smaller publishers. IDW is in the news about page rates lately as one of the internal memos was leaked from their new publisher saying they only want to pay $200 per page total to all creatives involved (i.e. $200 per page to split between the writer, penciller, inker, letterer, colorist and editor combined), especially on licensed books. The publisher also hints that if creators are paid less but offered royalties, they will be more incentivized to promote their books and IDW can save on marketing costs as well.
James Tynion IV made a conscious effort to create new characters for the Batman mythos when he was on the book yielding characters like Punchline and Clownhunter, Bendis did Naomi, etc. but these were creators who all had steady income streams outside the books they are doing for Marvel/DC and had the luxury of doing so. None of those characters seemed to remain prominent after the writer's tenure on them ended either (though Punchline was just the main antagonist in the recent Gotham City Sirens book DC did that wrapped up this month.
There's a catch 22 at work as well-comic fans seem to perceive any new characters created by a creator for the big 2 as a "Mary Sue" or being part of some woke agenda is the character isn't a straight white male (see all the online reaction to Naomi) and reject the character from the time it is announced and never actually buy the characters in print. Especially if they see the new character as getting attention or marketing at the expense of one of their beloved characters who isn't being featured currently or doesn't have their own book. It's actually a very hostile environment in which to try to create new characters right now, especially since the bulk of marketing anything in comics falls on the shoulders of the creators, not the publishers, and social media is the primary venue to try to promote it and a cesspool of negativity fueled by the toxic segment of fandom. And any book is liable to be labelled a cash grab if it doesn't fit within the narrow band of "acceptable" books to that fanbase.
The biggest problem is that there are simply not enough comic readers out there to make a mass market publishing plan centered on periodicals sustainable, and what readership does exist is mostly nostalgia fueled and focused on existing favorites in terms of characters and titles. Some have suggested the cut down the books they offer to focus on quality not quantity here as well. If they make fewer books, they will get fewer sales because the customer base is so small (and we have had the discussion of why customer base entry began the moment that newsstands decided not to carry comics any more and the comic industry chose to focus on the direct market with it's niche destination based shops as their primary outlet and did nothing to create a new discovery market to replace newsstands and thus ensured they would no longer draw in enough new readers to replace those who aged out, lost interest or died off in the long run). On top of that, they failed to keep up with market changes where the print periodical became a dinosaur format that lost its appeal to the mass market as a whole (not just comics) and only appealed as a nostalgia product to those who grew up with it, a huge barrier to drawing new customers despite the popularity of the content in other formats. Fewer books (and no variants) will simply result in fewer sales to the existing customer base each month. And since the balance of economy of scale is already working against publishers because of the small size of print runs (one of the reasons you do variants is to raise print run totals and keep economy of scale at bay to keep per unit costs manageable), which keeps margins small, you have to move volumes of units to make a line profitable. Moving fewer units also hurts your retail partners who are also working on tiny margins. (Those who have been here a while have seen me remind folks of this before but that $4 comic only nets the publisher $1. Publisher sells it to distributor for $1, who sells it to retailer for $2, who sells it at $4 but also pays shipping on it eating into their margins...some variables for discount % apply but that's the principle of how the distribution market works).
Reducing the size of the lines would mean lower profitability for the line as a whole coupled with a loss of jobs as there are fewer books to make-lower profits and higher costs mean page rates likely have to be cut, which would lead to talent flight to other industries so no it would not result in better books as your best talent would leave the field. Fewer books to sell also means fewer sales for your retailers and since so many comic retailers are barely scraping buy would result in the closure of many shops shrinking your outlets, and reducing your overall sales in the process, which will then also move economy of scale further against you raising per unit costs even more. The only way to combat that is to get an influx of new readers, except the main barrier to that is you have no discovery market for new readers to fond your product (and losing what outlets you have when shops close even though they are not discovery markets to begin with) and you are stuck with a format that has no traction or appeal in the mass market for you to possibly be sold in a place where new readers might be. Young adult graphic novels have been one of the biggest growth markets in publishing over the last decade, but periodicals are not part of that market model, and thus Marvel and DC has missed out on most of the growth of new readers that have been created with it (DC has had some minor success there with books tailored specifically for the youth market but not with their mainline though the compact editions they are rolling out seem like they might get some traction in that market).
The biggest issue as I see it (in my unprofessional personal perspective) is that where comic publishers need to go to find growth and new readers is somewhere existing long term comic readers do not want to go. They are nostalgic readers and want to read the characters they grew up with in the format they discovered comics in and don't want to let go of that. The problem is those readers have been aging out, dying off or changing life circumstances for the last 30 years and there has not been new customers coming in to take their place. Potential new readers don't want that format, don't want to have to go to a destination niche shop to find their books and don't want to wait a month or more between tiny installments of the story. Traditional comic publishers are caught in the middle-it's not cost effective to do 2 lines to try to please both, and picking one of the other leaves a customer base too small now to be sustainable.
Periodical comics keep getting more expensive for a number of reasons-in addition to printing, paper and salary costs rising, the smaller the print runs and the fewer books you print overall, the more economy of scale works against you to increase per unit cost for printing, making margins smaller and smaller. Small press books done outside traditional distribution (crowd-funding con sales etc.) are now reaching the $10-15 per issue mark because of small print runs and high per unit costs. Direct market books are headed into that territory, in the not too distant future (bigger page count issues are already hitting the $7.00 and $9.99 mark in the direct market) which will cause the customer base to shrink more (those prices go against the nostalgic sensibilities of long-term readers who want to pay mass market prices even though comics have become a niche market product).
Fans tend not to give a crap about any of this though as they do not like to think of comics as a business. They don't want to think of creators being horridly underpaid or having their creations essentially stolen from them and exploited for millions of which they never saw a penny. They just want their fix, and that cognitive dissonance between those twe perspectives creates a lot of unrealistic expectations, which leads to a lot of disappointments and bitterness.
-M Very good post. One other thing I would add is that all the creative industries, and most of the creators in them, are struggling in the internet age. When anyone can self publish their book on Amazon or post their music on iTunes or come out with their own blog on whatever, people who are legitimate professionals that have worked for years in these fields struggle to earn what they used to since there are no more gatekeepers and the field is so diluted. Yes, it gives everyone a chance but it's also much harder for professionals to make a living. I'd have to imagine, with a lot of the web comics and possibilities in self publishing, this is equally true of the comics industry.
|
|
|
Post by MRPs_Missives on Sept 20, 2024 1:55:47 GMT -5
Marvel and DC are where you go to get the best page rates (and even their page rates have not kept up with inflation) if you are trying to make a living making comics and don't have gigs outside comics or enough of a back catalog where you get residuals to support yourself, especially artists who can usually only do 1 book a month. It's steady work, you don't have to worry about not getting paid by a fly by night publisher or a company with cash flow issues (looking at you IDW) and there enough of an editorial and production staff in place you don't have to take on all the extra work of actually getting the book made and to market yourself. I'm putting the rest of my post behind spoilers. Longtime forum members have seen most of it before, so I will offer to spare them having to see it again. Those who haven't seen it who don't want to look at things like the business realities of comics instead of looking at comics through happy nostalgia glasses can't simply skip over it without clicking on the spoiler tag and be on their way.
Image doesn't pay page rates (some of the studios within Image like Top Cow might, but not Image itself. It pays creators on the back end (i.e. a percentage agreed upon in the contract after the book is published and sold). Dark Horse, BOOM! do page rates and offer creator participation and ownership options (with various different levels of strings/clauses in their contracts, but their page rates are typically lower than Marvel and DC because they are smaller publishers. IDW is in the news about page rates lately as one of the internal memos was leaked from their new publisher saying they only want to pay $200 per page total to all creatives involved (i.e. $200 per page to split between the writer, penciller, inker, letterer, colorist and editor combined), especially on licensed books. The publisher also hints that if creators are paid less but offered royalties, they will be more incentivized to promote their books and IDW can save on marketing costs as well.
James Tynion IV made a conscious effort to create new characters for the Batman mythos when he was on the book yielding characters like Punchline and Clownhunter, Bendis did Naomi, etc. but these were creators who all had steady income streams outside the books they are doing for Marvel/DC and had the luxury of doing so. None of those characters seemed to remain prominent after the writer's tenure on them ended either (though Punchline was just the main antagonist in the recent Gotham City Sirens book DC did that wrapped up this month.
There's a catch 22 at work as well-comic fans seem to perceive any new characters created by a creator for the big 2 as a "Mary Sue" or being part of some woke agenda is the character isn't a straight white male (see all the online reaction to Naomi) and reject the character from the time it is announced and never actually buy the characters in print. Especially if they see the new character as getting attention or marketing at the expense of one of their beloved characters who isn't being featured currently or doesn't have their own book. It's actually a very hostile environment in which to try to create new characters right now, especially since the bulk of marketing anything in comics falls on the shoulders of the creators, not the publishers, and social media is the primary venue to try to promote it and a cesspool of negativity fueled by the toxic segment of fandom. And any book is liable to be labelled a cash grab if it doesn't fit within the narrow band of "acceptable" books to that fanbase.
The biggest problem is that there are simply not enough comic readers out there to make a mass market publishing plan centered on periodicals sustainable, and what readership does exist is mostly nostalgia fueled and focused on existing favorites in terms of characters and titles. Some have suggested the cut down the books they offer to focus on quality not quantity here as well. If they make fewer books, they will get fewer sales because the customer base is so small (and we have had the discussion of why customer base entry began the moment that newsstands decided not to carry comics any more and the comic industry chose to focus on the direct market with it's niche destination based shops as their primary outlet and did nothing to create a new discovery market to replace newsstands and thus ensured they would no longer draw in enough new readers to replace those who aged out, lost interest or died off in the long run). On top of that, they failed to keep up with market changes where the print periodical became a dinosaur format that lost its appeal to the mass market as a whole (not just comics) and only appealed as a nostalgia product to those who grew up with it, a huge barrier to drawing new customers despite the popularity of the content in other formats. Fewer books (and no variants) will simply result in fewer sales to the existing customer base each month. And since the balance of economy of scale is already working against publishers because of the small size of print runs (one of the reasons you do variants is to raise print run totals and keep economy of scale at bay to keep per unit costs manageable), which keeps margins small, you have to move volumes of units to make a line profitable. Moving fewer units also hurts your retail partners who are also working on tiny margins. (Those who have been here a while have seen me remind folks of this before but that $4 comic only nets the publisher $1. Publisher sells it to distributor for $1, who sells it to retailer for $2, who sells it at $4 but also pays shipping on it eating into their margins...some variables for discount % apply but that's the principle of how the distribution market works).
Reducing the size of the lines would mean lower profitability for the line as a whole coupled with a loss of jobs as there are fewer books to make-lower profits and higher costs mean page rates likely have to be cut, which would lead to talent flight to other industries so no it would not result in better books as your best talent would leave the field. Fewer books to sell also means fewer sales for your retailers and since so many comic retailers are barely scraping buy would result in the closure of many shops shrinking your outlets, and reducing your overall sales in the process, which will then also move economy of scale further against you raising per unit costs even more. The only way to combat that is to get an influx of new readers, except the main barrier to that is you have no discovery market for new readers to fond your product (and losing what outlets you have when shops close even though they are not discovery markets to begin with) and you are stuck with a format that has no traction or appeal in the mass market for you to possibly be sold in a place where new readers might be. Young adult graphic novels have been one of the biggest growth markets in publishing over the last decade, but periodicals are not part of that market model, and thus Marvel and DC has missed out on most of the growth of new readers that have been created with it (DC has had some minor success there with books tailored specifically for the youth market but not with their mainline though the compact editions they are rolling out seem like they might get some traction in that market).
The biggest issue as I see it (in my unprofessional personal perspective) is that where comic publishers need to go to find growth and new readers is somewhere existing long term comic readers do not want to go. They are nostalgic readers and want to read the characters they grew up with in the format they discovered comics in and don't want to let go of that. The problem is those readers have been aging out, dying off or changing life circumstances for the last 30 years and there has not been new customers coming in to take their place. Potential new readers don't want that format, don't want to have to go to a destination niche shop to find their books and don't want to wait a month or more between tiny installments of the story. Traditional comic publishers are caught in the middle-it's not cost effective to do 2 lines to try to please both, and picking one of the other leaves a customer base too small now to be sustainable.
Periodical comics keep getting more expensive for a number of reasons-in addition to printing, paper and salary costs rising, the smaller the print runs and the fewer books you print overall, the more economy of scale works against you to increase per unit cost for printing, making margins smaller and smaller. Small press books done outside traditional distribution (crowd-funding con sales etc.) are now reaching the $10-15 per issue mark because of small print runs and high per unit costs. Direct market books are headed into that territory, in the not too distant future (bigger page count issues are already hitting the $7.00 and $9.99 mark in the direct market) which will cause the customer base to shrink more (those prices go against the nostalgic sensibilities of long-term readers who want to pay mass market prices even though comics have become a niche market product).
Fans tend not to give a crap about any of this though as they do not like to think of comics as a business. They don't want to think of creators being horridly underpaid or having their creations essentially stolen from them and exploited for millions of which they never saw a penny. They just want their fix, and that cognitive dissonance between those twe perspectives creates a lot of unrealistic expectations, which leads to a lot of disappointments and bitterness.
-M Very good post. One other thing I would add is that all the creative industries, and most of the creators in them, are struggling in the internet age. When anyone can self publish their book on Amazon or post their music on iTunes or come out with their own blog on whatever, people who are legitimate professional that have worked for years in these fields struggle to earn what they used to since there are no more gatekeepers and the field is so diluted. Yes, it gives everyone a chance but it's also much harder for professionals to make a living. I'd have to imagine, with a lot of the web comics and possibilities in self publishing, this is equally true of the comics industry. Not to mention some companies looking to replace actual creatives with AI to eliminate more jobs and be more "cost-efficient" in the creation of content and the flood of people without the talent, skill, or wherewithal to actually create flooding the field with their AI generated "creations" further diluting the pool. -M
|
|
|
Post by Yasotay on Sept 20, 2024 2:01:12 GMT -5
Very good post. One other thing I would add is that all the creative industries, and most of the creators in them, are struggling in the internet age. When anyone can self publish their book on Amazon or post their music on iTunes or come out with their own blog on whatever, people who are legitimate professional that have worked for years in these fields struggle to earn what they used to since there are no more gatekeepers and the field is so diluted. Yes, it gives everyone a chance but it's also much harder for professionals to make a living. I'd have to imagine, with a lot of the web comics and possibilities in self publishing, this is equally true of the comics industry. Not to mention some companies looking to replace actual creatives with AI to eliminate more jobs and be more "cost-efficient" in the creation of content and the flood of people without the talent, skill, or wherewithal to actually create flooding the field with their AI generated "creations" further diluting the pool. -M Don't even get me started on that! I used to provide most of the news content and a number of feature stories for a semi-significant website until they got sold last year. The new owners got rid of everyone who wrote for the site and, from what I've seen, are doing nothing but AI generated news and reprinting old stories now.
|
|
|
Post by driver1980 on Sept 20, 2024 3:12:30 GMT -5
I make a point of blocking *all* AI-related ads on Twitter.
I don’t want to receive “legal advice” from an AI that will probably conflate different laws and give me an incorrect answer.
I don’t want to receive “medical advice” from an AI that will probably relay inaccurate information.
I am not interested in AI content as far as writing or art is concerned. Some AI ‘art’ of Batman did the rounds on Twitter last year, and it looked like someone had badly aped Brian Bolland’s art.
I want actual human beings doing things. I wouldn’t even trust an AI to do something which I consider mundane, e.g. completing my tax return. I do it myself, but I may ask an accountant to do it one day as it’s boring. But an AI would probably screw it up somehow.
On comics, I want people putting their heart and soul into the writing and art. I want that passionate fan of Doctor Who, who is now working in comics, to draw Daleks for all of us who would read such a comic, not a soulless AI program that’ll probably give the Daleks fingers and toes.
|
|