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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 26, 2015 11:48:27 GMT -5
Every country on the planet earth was founded on some level of aggression. Live with it. I'm not gonna keep crying about the past. Nobody wants anybody crying about it; it's denying it that's the problem. I always try to put events in their proper place. I'm not denying the near extinction of the American Indian , but I rather focus on the positives about Thanksgiving. It is a time where family gathers together and re connects. |
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Post by hondobrode on Nov 26, 2015 14:06:28 GMT -5
Too bad Superbly couldn't bring them a bigger turkey for dinner. It's squab ? |
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Post by Paradox on Nov 29, 2015 8:24:30 GMT -5
Looks too big for a squab. Looks like a normal sized roasted chicken to me.
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Post by benday-dot on Nov 29, 2015 18:28:33 GMT -5
As we thank Providence for the food on our tables sometimes we realize that in the end it all just tastes like chicken...  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 22:17:49 GMT -5
 See, it was the comic version of the Golden Turkey Awards. . . Hey, it was either that or Barbie Fashion #37. So be thankful. (Heh heh. thankful.) |
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Post by tingramretro on Nov 30, 2015 2:48:43 GMT -5
I always have loved Thanksgiving for many reasons, but the best one was that the money-grubbers really never figured out how to commercialize it much past getting us to buy large quantities of food. NO "Tommy Turkey" visiting children placing drumsticks and cranberries in their stockings, no colossal Turkey in the mall on whose lap children sit to beg for mashed potatoes, no " 'TwasNight Before Thanksgiving" poem to read to the kiddies, etc. The helots never could quite get their grubby fingers on it. So they destroyed it, or have tried to, by minimizing it, reducing it to the appetizer before the main event, which is, of course, selling junk to the Legions of the Base, who for whatever sordid reasons, are willing to leave their families and homes on a day allegedly set aside to honor both in order to stampede into shopping malls as early as possible to buy this year's version of Tickle Me Elmo to show someone in the family how much they love him or her. Huh? There are some signs this isn't as popular as it has been, but (a) I remain to be convinced; and (b) until everyone, worker and consumer, refuses to participate in this travesty, Black Friday, now creeping deep into Thursday will continue to be a blight on the cultural landscape. Ebola's got nothing on consumerism for causing short- and long-term damage. At least most of us want to eradicate ebola. Damn fine post Prince Hal. Sadly, the Black Friday travesty has definitely been exported north of the border. A lot of Canadians especially those from just north of the border have traditionally, and in my neck of the woods (Nova Scotia), headed south to Maine, New Hampshire or your own state in search of deals. Canadian retailers have tried to stem the consumer migration by having their own Black Friday deals. It's an odious spiral of greed for sure. This Black Friday crap haas now migrated to the UK (it first reared its ugly head to a significant degree about two years ago) despite the fairly obvious fact that, since we don't celebrate any kind of holiday in late November, it's utterly meaningless, here. Thanks a lot, America. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Nov 30, 2015 9:29:08 GMT -5
I didn't know about this when I posted the link explaining the US version of Thanksgiving. It confuses me a bit though, because while it's clear the European arrival into the Americas ended horribly for the natives, that's not what this holiday is commemorating. Its connection with the Native Americans celebrates a time when the newly arrived Europeans and the Native Americans came together peacefully, with the natives helping the newcomers. Beyond that, the spirit of the holiday is being grateful for what we're given, regardless of where we originated.
Also weren't Native Americans against Columbus Day for the same reason? That one makes more sense to me to protest, because that started the whole thing.
As for Black Friday and the sales creeping into Thanksgiving Thursday, I ignore the whole thing and stay home.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 30, 2015 10:13:29 GMT -5
I didn't know about this when I posted the link explaining the US version of Thanksgiving. It confuses me a bit though, because while it's clear the European arrival into the Americas ended horribly for the natives, that's not what this holiday is commemorating. Its connection with the Native Americans celebrates a time when the newly arrived Europeans and the Native Americans came together peacefully, with the natives helping the newcomers. Beyond that, the spirit of the holiday is being grateful for what we're given, regardless of where we originated.
Also weren't Native Americans against Columbus Day for the same reason? That one makes more sense to me to protest, because that started the whole thing.
As for Black Friday and the sales creeping into Thanksgiving Thursday, I ignore the whole thing and stay home.
I think that the legends, misperceptions, and convenient ignoring of the truth surrounding the origins of Thanksgiving are what lie at the root of feelings exemplified by the National Day of Mourning. In this part of the country (Cape Cod), we still have a strong Wampanoag presence. Plimoth Plantation is a major historical site and tourist attraction. However, because much of the realpolitik of the relationships between the Saints (as the Pilgrims referred to themselves) and the various native peoples has been glossed over and transformed into a sanitized, idyllic origin story, there is resentment and a craving for a fuller reporting of the facts. The Pilgrims who sat down to feast with one tribe were the same ones who hunted down and killed others. In fact, the decapitated head of a native slain in a pre-emptive strike led by Myles Standish (after a warning from the natives who were allies of the Pilgrims) was displayed as a trophy above the gates of Plimoth. Even worse was King Phillip's War, waged by the second generation of Pilgrims and their fellow colonists against their former allies, the bloodiest war in proportion to population ever fought in North America. That three-year-long war claimed over 3,000 native lives and resulted in the annihilation of several tribes, most notably the Pequot, whose legacy of death and exile were alluded to by Melville, who named the doomed whaler Pequod after them. The natives who were not killed were sold into slavery in the West Indies, forced into servitude in colonial households, or "given" to tribes that had been helpful to the Pilgrim descendants. Native pride runs deep around here, despite the passage of centuries. History has a way of nagging at the winners, no matter how hard they try to rewrite it, and reawakening an understanding of how we got where we are today. Sorry. Didn't mean to lecture. The truth is complicated, though. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Nov 30, 2015 10:38:13 GMT -5
I didn't know about this when I posted the link explaining the US version of Thanksgiving. It confuses me a bit though, because while it's clear the European arrival into the Americas ended horribly for the natives, that's not what this holiday is commemorating. Its connection with the Native Americans celebrates a time when the newly arrived Europeans and the Native Americans came together peacefully, with the natives helping the newcomers. Beyond that, the spirit of the holiday is being grateful for what we're given, regardless of where we originated.
Also weren't Native Americans against Columbus Day for the same reason? That one makes more sense to me to protest, because that started the whole thing.
As for Black Friday and the sales creeping into Thanksgiving Thursday, I ignore the whole thing and stay home.
I think that the legends, misperceptions, and convenient ignoring of the truth surrounding the origins of Thanksgiving are what lie at the root of feelings exemplified by the National Day of Mourning. In this part of the country (Cape Cod), we still have a strong Wampanoag presence. Plimoth Plantation is a major historical site and tourist attraction. However, because much of the realpolitik of the relationships between the Saints (as the Pilgrims referred to themselves) and the various native peoples has been glossed over and transformed into a sanitized, idyllic origin story, there is resentment and a craving for a fuller reporting of the facts. The Pilgrims who sat down to feast with one tribe were the same ones who hunted down and killed others. In fact, the decapitated head of a native slain in a pre-emptive strike led by Myles Standish (after a warning from the natives who were allies of the Pilgrims) was displayed as a trophy above the gates of Plimoth. Even worse was King Phillip's War, waged by the second generation of Pilgrims and their fellow colonists against their former allies, the bloodiest war in proportion to population ever fought in North America. That three-year-long war claimed over 3,000 native lives and resulted in the annihilation of several tribes, most notably the Pequot, whose legacy of death and exile were alluded to by Melville, who named the doomed whaler Pequod after them. The natives who were not killed were sold into slavery in the West Indies, forced into servitude in colonial households, or "given" to tribes that had been helpful to the Pilgrim descendants. Native pride runs deep around here, despite the passage of centuries. History has a way of nagging at the winners, no matter how hard they try to rewrite it, and reawakening an understanding of how we got where we are today. Sorry. Didn't mean to lecture. The truth is complicated, though. No need to apologize. As you say, truth is complicated. And messy. Native Americans have been horribly mistreated for centuries and the fact that they've chosen to observe a day of mourning and remembrance is totally understandable, noble, and commendable. I just wish all of the dealings between the Europeans and the Natives could have been in the same generous tone as the assistance given by the indigenous people, rather than the mass bloodshed and rampant land theft that it actually was. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 30, 2015 10:50:45 GMT -5
Absolutely.
The sense of exceptionalism that the Pilgrims felt when they landed and found a native village abandoned (because of a European-brought plague, ironically) meant that they thought that it was because of God's providence toward them and how enmity toward the "savages." It's that kind of spiritual and cultural arrogance that galls not just Native Americans, but many others who know that a pasteurized, Disneyfied version of Americna history is far from comforting; in fact, it leads to divisiveness and an infantile understanding of not just our history, but of the way the world works.
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Post by MDG on Nov 30, 2015 11:24:05 GMT -5
The sense of exceptionalism that the Pilgrims felt when they landed and found a native village abandoned (because of a European-brought plague, ironically) meant that they thought that it was because of God's providence toward them and how enmity toward the "savages." It's that kind of spiritual and cultural arrogance that galls not just Native Americans, but many others who know that a pasteurized, Disneyfied version of Americna history is far from comforting; in fact, it leads to divisiveness and an infantile understanding of not just our history, but of the way the world works. Well, now I feel kinda silly posting this:  |
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 30, 2015 12:00:49 GMT -5
Thanksgiving means football and traditional rivalries, like democracy vs. fascism. Rah, rah, rah!  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2015 15:22:41 GMT -5
Absolutely. The sense of exceptionalism that the Pilgrims felt when they landed and found a native village abandoned (because of a European-brought plague, ironically) meant that they thought that it was because of God's providence toward them and how enmity toward the "savages." It's that kind of spiritual and cultural arrogance that galls not just Native Americans, but many others who know that a pasteurized, Disneyfied version of Americna history is far from comforting; in fact, it leads to divisiveness and an infantile understanding of not just our history, but of the way the world works. Other aspects glossed over that I often hear-the initial site that the Pilgrims built there settlement on was an easy move in because it had been the site of a native village whose location was ready made for settlement allowing the Pilgrims to be able to get set up before they were in danger of dying from exposure and starvation-the reason it was abandoned, most of the population had died form smallpox brought by European explorers and there were too few survivors to maintain the settlement. Squanto the great hero fo the Thanksgiving legends, was wandering and available to help because he was a survivor of a tribe/settlement who had suffered a similar fate of being wiped out by diseases brought into the ecosystem by Europeans. Estimates put the population of Native Americans in North and South America at anywhere from 10 million (the conservative estimate) to 100 million (the extreme estimate) circa 1492 when Columbus voyage occurred and large scale European "exploration" began. Because of diseases brought by Europeans and violent conflicts between European explorers and settlers, the estimated population in 1620, the time of the Pilgrim arrival is that there were about 1 million Native American in the Americas. That's a depopulation of at least 90% with the conservative estimate being a decrease of 9 million Native Americans. To put that in perspective, the Holocaust claimed the lives of 3 million Jews. You can celebrate "peaceful" coexistence and cooperation all you want. It's a great story. But so is Batman. Neither based on reality. -M |
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 30, 2015 15:56:22 GMT -5
Absolutely. The sense of exceptionalism that the Pilgrims felt when they landed and found a native village abandoned (because of a European-brought plague, ironically) meant that they thought that it was because of God's providence toward them and how enmity toward the "savages." It's that kind of spiritual and cultural arrogance that galls not just Native Americans, but many others who know that a pasteurized, Disneyfied version of Americna history is far from comforting; in fact, it leads to divisiveness and an infantile understanding of not just our history, but of the way the world works. Other aspects glossed over that I often hear-the initial site that the Pilgrims built there settlement on was an easy move in because it had been the site of a native village whose location was ready made for settlement allowing the Pilgrims to be able to get set up before they were in danger of dying from exposure and starvation-the reason it was abandoned, most of the population had died form smallpox brought by European explorers and there were too few survivors to maintain the settlement. Squanto the great hero fo the Thanksgiving legends, was wandering and available to help because he was a survivor of a tribe/settlement who had suffered a similar fate of being wiped out by diseases brought into the ecosystem by Europeans. Estimates put the population of Native Americans in North and South America at anywhere from 10 million (the conservative estimate) to 100 million (the extreme estimate) circa 1492 when Columbus voyage occurred and large scale European "exploration" began. Because of diseases brought by Europeans and violent conflicts between European explorers and settlers, the estimated population in 1620, the time of the Pilgrim arrival is that there were about 1 million Native American in the Americas. That's a depopulation of at least 90% with the conservative estimate being a decrease of 9 million Native Americans. To put that in perspective, the Holocaust claimed the lives of 3 million Jews. You can celebrate "peaceful" coexistence and cooperation all you want. It's a great story. But so is Batman. Neither based on reality. -M Great last line there! Yes, that settlement is the one I was referring to. The notion that these "savages" were aligned with the devil were just another example of the notion that the first whites in Massachusetts (and elsewhere) were doing the Lord's work when they either converted or killed the natives. And though the total number of Jews killed in the Holocaust is six million, the toll you cite for native Americans is the same estimate I've seen, too. Talk about being able to compartmentalize... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2015 16:27:55 GMT -5
Other aspects glossed over that I often hear-the initial site that the Pilgrims built there settlement on was an easy move in because it had been the site of a native village whose location was ready made for settlement allowing the Pilgrims to be able to get set up before they were in danger of dying from exposure and starvation-the reason it was abandoned, most of the population had died form smallpox brought by European explorers and there were too few survivors to maintain the settlement. Squanto the great hero fo the Thanksgiving legends, was wandering and available to help because he was a survivor of a tribe/settlement who had suffered a similar fate of being wiped out by diseases brought into the ecosystem by Europeans. Estimates put the population of Native Americans in North and South America at anywhere from 10 million (the conservative estimate) to 100 million (the extreme estimate) circa 1492 when Columbus voyage occurred and large scale European "exploration" began. Because of diseases brought by Europeans and violent conflicts between European explorers and settlers, the estimated population in 1620, the time of the Pilgrim arrival is that there were about 1 million Native American in the Americas. That's a depopulation of at least 90% with the conservative estimate being a decrease of 9 million Native Americans. To put that in perspective, the Holocaust claimed the lives of 3 million Jews. You can celebrate "peaceful" coexistence and cooperation all you want. It's a great story. But so is Batman. Neither based on reality. -M Great last line there! Yes, that settlement is the one I was referring to. The notion that these "savages" were aligned with the devil were just another example of the notion that the first whites in Massachusetts (and elsewhere) were doing the Lord's work when they either converted or killed the natives. And though the total number of Jews killed in the Holocaust is six million, the toll you cite for native Americans is the same estimate I've seen, too. Talk about being able to compartmentalize... Sigh, that's what I get for trusting my memory and not fact checking these days. -M |
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