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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 15, 2015 23:45:45 GMT -5
I suspect if they actually made some small effort to market the Golden Age stuff, they could have both, but that's neither here nor there. Honestly, I don't think Masterworks sell much, period. They're just too much money. The Epics are the way to go, IMO.
I'm just sad I can't support the brand more.. they keep printing ones I have the single comics for already!
I was just doing popping around on that Ms. Marvel series, and man, is there ALOT of them out there for sale! I suspect Reptilisaurus is right about there being a bubble there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2015 23:58:24 GMT -5
I suspect if they actually made some small effort to market the Golden Age stuff, they could have both, but that's neither here nor there. Honestly, I don't think Masterworks sell much, period. They're just too much money. The Epics are the way to go, IMO. I'm just sad I can't support the brand more.. they keep printing ones I have the single comics for already! I was just doing popping around on that Ms. Marvel series, and man, is there ALOT of them out there for sale! I suspect Reptilisaurus is right about there being a bubble there. I went to a convention in CT just before I left 12 years ago, a local show at a VFW hall with local dealers where between the 3 biggest dealers there, there were 12 copies of Amazing Spider-Man #1 for sale, 6 Avengers #1s, 8 Avengers 4, 3 FF #1s, 2 Amazing Fantasy #15s and a about 25 Iron Man #1s. I was amazed and jotted it down on my want list as I went around and tallied the key books available. The numbers were ingrained into my head. I don't think any of them sold that day, but there was a lot for sale. Must have been a bubble right? Prices came down on them as time passed because there was more copies for sale than actually sold? I am pretty sure they sold eventually and I am pretty sure most of the copies up at sites like Lonestar will sell given time. Prices will continue to flux, but overall they will settle in at much higher than dollar bin fodder levels for those books. -M
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2015 0:05:19 GMT -5
addendum top last post. The market has changed on those books, now dealers would have them CGC'd rather than take them to shows and the prices skyrocketed on them so you would not likely display them in a locale like that without security, surveillance cameras and insurance now, but the fact there are a lot of them out there doesn't affect pricing. Key Silver Age Marvel* books, even higher grade one are not scarce, there is just high demand relative to supply. As Bronze Age books get older and spotlight is shown on them through movies and what not, the demand will creep up in relation to supply and prices will continue to creep, the big jumps are more market corrections at this point as Bronze Age books were undervalued for their age for a long time, and the market may have corrected too far in the opposite direction at the moment, but I doubt you will ever see them fall to the point they are chaff dollar bin exiles again.
-M
I never saw much Silver DC at the shows, an occasional Showcae 4 or 22 or some such, but I think that was a demand thing rather than supply, no one was asking for Silver DC at the shows either.
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Post by Dizzy D on Dec 16, 2015 4:04:27 GMT -5
Let's see, (quick scan only):
Image: Discipline #1: It's a new Milligan so I'm at the least giving it a good look.
More Injection. More Luther Strode. Probably more Monstress (still haven't read #1 and #2). More Switch
Trades: East of West volume 5, maybe Paper Girls?
Marvel:
Thinking about: Infinite Entity: Starlin's writing the past few years has been horrible, but it has Alan Davis on art.. Choices, choices.
Probably tradewait Black Widow.
Mockingbird looks good and I usually care little for the character. Also a maybe.
Getting: More Captain Marvel, more Hercules, more Illuminati, more Miracleman. As said before Dr. Strange is probably going to trade, as my comicshop messed up.
Trades: New Avengers is a maybe, I love Ewing and the idea of Sunspot in a big role, but I disliked the art. Star Wars: Vader: TPB 1 was very good, so I'm in. Unless the movie next Friday kills all my interest in Star Wars for the foreseeable future.
(Interesting to see them collecting the Infinity Watch.Of course IMHO its the big precursor to DnA's Guardians of the Galaxy, more than the original Guardians were at least so it makes sense.)
Looking at it, it's a big list, so a lot of the Maybe's will be No's.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 16, 2015 9:14:40 GMT -5
I suspect if they actually made some small effort to market the Golden Age stuff, they could have both, but that's neither here nor there. Honestly, I don't think Masterworks sell much, period. They're just too much money. The Epics are the way to go, IMO. I'm just sad I can't support the brand more.. they keep printing ones I have the single comics for already! I was just doing popping around on that Ms. Marvel series, and man, is there ALOT of them out there for sale! I suspect Reptilisaurus is right about there being a bubble there. I went to a convention in CT just before I left 12 years ago, a local show at a VFW hall with local dealers where between the 3 biggest dealers there, there were 12 copies of Amazing Spider-Man #1 for sale, 6 Avengers #1s, 8 Avengers 4, 3 FF #1s, 2 Amazing Fantasy #15s and a about 25 Iron Man #1s. I was amazed and jotted it down on my want list as I went around and tallied the key books available. The numbers were ingrained into my head. I don't think any of them sold that day, but there was a lot for sale. Must have been a bubble right? Prices came down on them as time passed because there was more copies for sale than actually sold? I am pretty sure they sold eventually and I am pretty sure most of the copies up at sites like Lonestar will sell given time. Prices will continue to flux, but overall they will settle in at much higher than dollar bin fodder levels for those books. -M Wow, seriously? I haven't see that many in my whole life, and I've been to ALOT of comic book stores (not many cons, granted). Maybe the market is just bigger than I think.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 16, 2015 15:40:23 GMT -5
I suspect if they actually made some small effort to market the Golden Age stuff, they could have both, but that's neither here nor there. Honestly, I don't think Masterworks sell much, period. They're just too much money. The Epics are the way to go, IMO. I'm just sad I can't support the brand more.. they keep printing ones I have the single comics for already! I was just doing popping around on that Ms. Marvel series, and man, is there ALOT of them out there for sale! I suspect Reptilisaurus is right about there being a bubble there. I went to a convention in CT just before I left 12 years ago, a local show at a VFW hall with local dealers where between the 3 biggest dealers there, there were 12 copies of Amazing Spider-Man #1 for sale, 6 Avengers #1s, 8 Avengers 4, 3 FF #1s, 2 Amazing Fantasy #15s and a about 25 Iron Man #1s. I was amazed and jotted it down on my want list as I went around and tallied the key books available. The numbers were ingrained into my head. I don't think any of them sold that day, but there was a lot for sale. Must have been a bubble right? Prices came down on them as time passed because there was more copies for sale than actually sold? I am pretty sure they sold eventually and I am pretty sure most of the copies up at sites like Lonestar will sell given time. Prices will continue to flux, but overall they will settle in at much higher than dollar bin fodder levels for those books. -M Well, I agree that there are a lot of copies of Silver Age and later comics out there. But I disagree that prices on 'em are going to continue to trend upwards after the superhero movievariant cover driven direct market/bubble pops. We've seen huge price gains on key issues from all areas - And I assume that kind of growth is unsustainable and we'll have some hard market corrections, as with Baseball cards and stamps and other collectibles.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 16, 2015 15:45:28 GMT -5
But I've definitely seen stuff from Fantastic Four vol. 17, Marvel Team-Up Vol. 2, Defenders vol. 5 and Captain America vol. 7 in dollar bins. Luke Cage and Ms. Marvel will be back there once movie/TV hype dies down. But, mostly my complaint is that they've stopped reprinting the REALLY hard to find Golden and Atlas era stuff in Masterworks to concentrate on increasingly afordable superhero books. Because the demand for that Golden Age stuff isn't there to make the volumes profitable. Again, the Bronze Age stuff is what the audience with disposable income looking to relive their childhood grew up with. That's what drove the growth of the Silver Age back issue market and the viability of Silver Age collections 15-20 years ago, but 15-20 years is a generation so the spotlight is moving a generation ahead in what is getting collected/marketed. And a lot of people looking for that stuff won't go to a comic shop or convention to buy singles, and buy it, but will shop places like Amazon for collections. Besides, Marvel makes no money when you buy affordable copies of back issues, they do when you buy collections, so if there is demand for the stuff they will capitalize on it. But where is the demand coming for obscure Golden Age stuff? (as much as I would love to see it too) -M D'you know what Masterworks COST now-a-days? At 75 bucks a pop, I suspect further Golden Age/Atlas volumes would be profitable! If someone can make money selling Golden Age Heap Collections and 11 volume sets of AGC's Adventures into the Unknown, I think that previously uncollected Kirby and Ditko Strange Tales Volumes could make some money. But I guess that Marvel needs to commit to their core audience of people who are really, really into their characters. Bah!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2015 16:12:22 GMT -5
Because the demand for that Golden Age stuff isn't there to make the volumes profitable. Again, the Bronze Age stuff is what the audience with disposable income looking to relive their childhood grew up with. That's what drove the growth of the Silver Age back issue market and the viability of Silver Age collections 15-20 years ago, but 15-20 years is a generation so the spotlight is moving a generation ahead in what is getting collected/marketed. And a lot of people looking for that stuff won't go to a comic shop or convention to buy singles, and buy it, but will shop places like Amazon for collections. Besides, Marvel makes no money when you buy affordable copies of back issues, they do when you buy collections, so if there is demand for the stuff they will capitalize on it. But where is the demand coming for obscure Golden Age stuff? (as much as I would love to see it too) -M D'you know what Masterworks COST now-a-days? At 75 bucks a pop, I suspect further Golden Age/Atlas volumes would be profitable! If someone can make money selling Golden Age Heap Collections and 11 volume sets of AGC's Adventures into the Unknown, I think that previously uncollected Kirby and Ditko Strange Tales Volumes could make some money. But I guess that Marvel needs to commit to their core audience of people who are really, really into their characters. Bah! Let's see at $75 a pop, that means the retailer is paying Diamond about $40 for them so Marvel is getting about $20. A print run in color of what 200 pages or so and only 3-4K copies printed (that would be an amazingly high seller like top 10 on the Diamond charts)in the direct market mind you) would net you probably printing costs alone between $7.50 and $10 a copy, plus reprint fees to creators, plus transport costs, plus administrative costs, marketing costs to solicit the book, etc. all out of that $20 a copy Marvel actually gets, doesn't leave a very high profit margin. Maybe $4-5 dollars a book and 4000 copies, is $20K, when they can spend the time and effort on other things and make much, much more. $20K doesn't even really pay one salary when other projects they could do would make much more, so opportunity cost works against them too. Oh and if you look at the book trade charts Brian Hibbs does each year to show sales outside of Diamond in the book market, Marvel does terrible there and most Masterweork releases don't even chart there, so the sales mostly come form the Diamond direct market, which means the print run is likely less than 3-4K on those books. Publishers don't get msrp on a book, Publishers get about 1/4 of cover price on average. And smaller print runs, especially in color, mean higher per unit costs eating away at profitability. So where does this profit you say is there come from in the economic reality of the printing world? -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 16, 2015 16:29:23 GMT -5
Can I just throw in my two-bits that if we hadn't had the Sonny Bono Act pass that Golden Age stuff that is largely sitting there doing nothing would be either in the public domain or progressively getting there, instead of locked up in the hands of our corporate masters.
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Post by hondobrode on Dec 16, 2015 17:25:34 GMT -5
Peter Milligan's The Discipline was originally solicted as Vertigo, but he's now taken it to Image.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 16, 2015 18:26:28 GMT -5
D'you know what Masterworks COST now-a-days? At 75 bucks a pop, I suspect further Golden Age/Atlas volumes would be profitable! If someone can make money selling Golden Age Heap Collections and 11 volume sets of AGC's Adventures into the Unknown, I think that previously uncollected Kirby and Ditko Strange Tales Volumes could make some money. But I guess that Marvel needs to commit to their core audience of people who are really, really into their characters. Bah! Let's see at $75 a pop, that means the retailer is paying Diamond about $40 for them so Marvel is getting about $20. A print run in color of what 200 pages or so and only 3-4K copies printed (that would be an amazingly high seller like top 10 on the Diamond charts)in the direct market mind you) would net you probably printing costs alone between $7.50 and $10 a copy, plus reprint fees to creators, plus transport costs, plus administrative costs, marketing costs to solicit the book, etc. all out of that $20 a copy Marvel actually gets, doesn't leave a very high profit margin. Maybe $4-5 dollars a book and 4000 copies, is $20K, when they can spend the time and effort on other things and make much, much more. $20K doesn't even really pay one salary when other projects they could do would make much more, so opportunity cost works against them too. Oh and if you look at the book trade charts Brian Hibbs does each year to show sales outside of Diamond in the book market, Marvel does terrible there and most Masterweork releases don't even chart there, so the sales mostly come form the Diamond direct market, which means the print run is likely less than 3-4K on those books. Publishers don't get msrp on a book, Publishers get about 1/4 of cover price on average. And smaller print runs, especially in color, mean higher per unit costs eating away at profitability. So where does this profit you say is there come from in the economic reality of the printing world? -M So vastly more profit than dashing off 20,000 copies of Moon Knight of Squirrel Girl where you actually have to PAY creators? Certainly restoration work for the Masterworks costs, but - as I understand it - it's actually easier with the older books because they have a smaller pallet of colors. And it's not like they're doing a lot of outside marketing for the Masterworks. Plus once the files are finished for Masterworks they can be repackaged for other formats - IE the recent Steranko and Starlin collections. Marvel's publishing model, as I'm sure you know, is based on making a little bit of profit off a lot of items. The "projects that would make much more" are not in print - They're licensing the characters for Underoos and thermoses. But Masterworks seem like they would be one of the very highest in-print profit makers aside from the now bi-weekly Spider-man # 1s. And at 226 volumes the Masterworks program is one of Marvel's 15 longest running titles, ever. I'd just prefer they would print the stuff that I want them to print. I'm not sure about the Golden Age Volumes, but the last few Atlas volumes (A) sold a little less but not A LOT less than Hulk vol 14 or whatever, and (B) cost slightly more. So I don't think Marvel's reasoning is financial... at least directly. They just need to put all their resources into promoting the characters they can put into thermoses. And Kirby and Ditko and Maneely don't work as well for that purpose as Daredevil. ALSO they seem to have stopped making Sgt. Fury volumes, and the John Severin stuff was up next. OBVIOUSLY there motive for this is Satanic evil.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 16, 2015 19:58:34 GMT -5
Also Opaque bags are stupid.
ON TOPIC!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2015 23:36:13 GMT -5
So vastly more profit than dashing off 20,000 copies of Moon Knight of Squirrel Girl where you actually have to PAY creators? Certainly restoration work for the Masterworks costs, but - as I understand it - it's actually easier with the older books because they have a smaller pallet of colors. And it's not like they're doing a lot of outside marketing for the Masterworks. Plus once the files are finished for Masterworks they can be repackaged for other formats - IE the recent Steranko and Starlin collections. Marvel's publishing model, as I'm sure you know, is based on making a little bit of profit off a lot of items. The "projects that would make much more" are not in print - They're licensing the characters for Underoos and thermoses. But Masterworks seem like they would be one of the very highest in-print profit makers aside from the now bi-weekly Spider-man # 1s. And at 226 volumes the Masterworks program is one of Marvel's 15 longest running titles, ever. I'd just prefer they would print the stuff that I want them to print. I'm not sure about the Golden Age Volumes, but the last few Atlas volumes (A) sold a little less but not A LOT less than Hulk vol 14 or whatever, and (B) cost slightly more. So I don't think Marvel's reasoning is financial... at least directly. They just need to put all their resources into promoting the characters they can put into thermoses. And Kirby and Ditko and Maneely don't work as well for that purpose as Daredevil. ALSO they seem to have stopped making Sgt. Fury volumes, and the John Severin stuff was up next. OBVIOUSLY there motive for this is Satanic evil. A print run of 4K will cost you 4-5X per page in printing costs alone than a run of 20K. So yes the 20K run of Moon Knight and Squirrel Girl will cost less to produce even if creator costs are figured in. And since all the issues of MK & SQ are sold on a non-returnable basis while copies of the Masterworks going into the non-Diamond book trade are returnable you aren't even guaranteed to sell the entire print run on the Masterworks like you are on the Moon Squirrel comic. And there are more pages at the higher per unit cost in the MAsterworks adding to the expense of producing them as well. Printing presses operate on economy of scale moreso than many other operations. The more you print of the same thing, the less the per unit cost becomes. So running a product that has 20K units is vastly preferable than one that runs 4-5K units even if there are other ancillary costs in the 20K unit product like creator cost because the margins will still be much higher on the 20K unit product. If you can bump that 20K product up to 30K with a variant cover, your costs drop even more, variant covers aren't going to increase Masterwork sales even though they do them, few are getting both covers, so its not likely to bump up the print run. -M
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Dec 17, 2015 12:01:25 GMT -5
Peter Milligan's The Discipline was originally solicted as Vertigo, but he's now taken it to Image. Hmmm... I don't believe it ever was solicited by Vertigo. He only mentioned he was working on it and it might end up at Vertigo. Anyhow, more Milligan is something to rejoice in
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Post by hondobrode on Dec 17, 2015 12:30:17 GMT -5
Vertigo did announce it but with little or no detail.
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