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Post by Jesse on Jul 20, 2014 0:36:23 GMT -5
93. Frankenstein (Whale, 1931) 92. The Invisible Man (Whale, 1933) Two of my favorite James Whales films good choices. I've caught this on TCM a few times and really enjoyed it. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 20, 2014 7:14:56 GMT -5
And yet there are powerful inner character conflicts at play in The Motion Picture as well, especially for Kirk and Spock. It's not a perfect film, and yes V'Ger is pretty much a rip off of an earlier TOS episode, but it is SO well done, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels that way. That's true, but then powerful inter-character conflict is kinda the juice that makes original cast Star Trek work IMO. The chemistry between the crew members -- Kirk, Spock and McCoy particularly -- is precisely why I like the original Star Trek TV shows and movies. I've never been into the Next Gen, DS9 or any other spin off (including the recent reboot) and part of the reason I'm not into them is because there's nothing in any of those shows or movies that comes close to the magic that Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley brought to the screen. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 20, 2014 9:25:08 GMT -5
And yet there are powerful inner character conflicts at play in The Motion Picture as well, especially for Kirk and Spock. It's not a perfect film, and yes V'Ger is pretty much a rip off of an earlier TOS episode, but it is SO well done, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels that way. That's true, but then powerful inter-character conflict is kinda the juice that makes original cast Star Trek work IMO. The chemistry between the crew members -- Kirk, Spock and McCoy particularly -- is precisely why I like the original Star Trek TV shows and movies. I've never been into the Next Gen, DS9 or any other spin off (including the recent reboot) and part of the reason I'm not into them is because there's nothing in any of those shows or movies that comes close to the magic that Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley brought to the screen. Then you haven't given them enough of a chance. If you have Netflix, check out either of the following tonight and see if you change your mind: Next Generation Season 5, episode 25: The Inner Light Deep Space Nine Season 4, episode 3: The Visitor |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 20, 2014 10:06:37 GMT -5
And yet there are powerful inner character conflicts at play in The Motion Picture as well, especially for Kirk and Spock. It's not a perfect film, and yes V'Ger is pretty much a rip off of an earlier TOS episode, but it is SO well done, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels that way. That's true, but then powerful inter-character conflict is kinda the juice that makes original cast Star Trek work IMO. The chemistry between the crew members -- Kirk, Spock and McCoy particularly -- is precisely why I like the original Star Trek TV shows and movies. I've never been into the Next Gen, DS9 or any other spin off (including the recent reboot) and part of the reason I'm not into them is because there's nothing in any of those shows or movies that comes close to the magic that Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley brought to the screen. In my opinion your safe in that statement. While Next Generation had it's moments it still, for me, took too long for the characters to reach that level of interaction with each other. Plus there were many characters I didn't care for. Pilchard and Worfs professional and personal relationship and Data were what floated the boat then. I watched probably 90% of that show as it came out (it was a weekly family event in the house) and I've never had the inclination to revisit it. DSN was a total bore to. By the time that came out I think my father was the only one regularly watching it. I'd watch random episodes (which may be the reason why) but it could never grab my attention. I think my attitude is I'm not a Star Trek franchise fan like I'm not with Star Wars; I like the one show and the three movies with no desire for more of that concept. |
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Post by shaxper on Jul 20, 2014 10:27:51 GMT -5
In my opinion your safe in that statement. While Next Generation had it's moments it still, for me, took too long for the characters to reach that level of interaction with each other. If the contest is over which series hit its stride with characterization sooner, you're correct that TOS wins. But, by Season 4, Next Generation had a cast that offered characterization and inner conflicts that I found far richer. You just had to give it time. And while Kirk and Spock were firing on all cylinders on day one, some of that cast didn't really get personalities until The Voyage Home. It was. DS9, unlike any other Trek series, was written in arcs, not episodes. Very few individual episodes introduced and resolved a problem. Instead, deeper issues that reflected the real-world pervaded for multiple episodes (sometimes seasons) before arriving at resolutions that inevitably shaped the show's characters in response. When DS9 first came out, I couldn't stand it. After hearing many people argue passionately for it, I went back and watched it years later. Season One had only one truly good episode in my opinion (Duet), but starting with Season Two, the show just got progressively better and better, and I ultimately came to care about that cast of characters as if they were real people I knew -- full of hopes, fears, beauty, ugliness, and (unlike any other Trek show) the writers ensured that EVERYTHING that happened to them counted and didn't get forgotten a few episodes down the line. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 21, 2014 4:05:53 GMT -5
Then you haven't given them enough of a chance. No, I'm pretty sure I have. Two of my best friends were big ol' fans of the Next Gen back in the day and they were forever making me watch episodes that were supposedly "one of the best episodes ever" and I was always really underwhelmed. It also might be worth mentioning that I find that Data character to be one of the most singularly annoying characters ever. In any medium. Ever. I remember going to the cinema to watch the Next Gen film with the borg -- think it was the first non-Shatner movie, but the name of it escapes me now -- and after about an hour I was screaming to get out of my seat and leave. It really was quite an endurance test to watch that movie 'til the end. For some reason I just find the Next Generation and DS9 etc really dull. I think my attitude is I'm not a Star Trek franchise fan like I'm not with Star Wars; I like the one show and the three movies with no desire for more of that concept. Yeah, that's like me...I'm a fan of the OS and the attendant films, but not a fan of Star Trek as a franchise. I'm also not into the minutiae of Star Trek trivia and what not, even for the stuff I like. I just like the stories and characters for what they are and have no desire to get bogged down in the nerdy detail. However, I am a proper Star Wars nut and could bore your legs off with all kinds of useless in-universe trivia from that franchise.  |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 21, 2014 4:14:40 GMT -5
Then you haven't given them enough of a chance. No, I'm pretty sure I have. Two of my best friends were big ol' fans of the Next Gen back in the day and they were forever making me watch episodes that were supposedly "one of the best episodes ever" and I was always really underwhelmed. It also might be worth mentioning that I find that Data character to be one of the most singularly annoying characters ever. In any medium. Ever. If what you're looking for is character development (and that's what I've gotten from your previous posts), then watching isolated episodes probably isn't going to deliver that. It's possible Next Gen just isn't for you, but I've never heard of someone who was fans of both saying that the original series had richer characters and character conflicts. That film was abysmal. All of the Next Gen films were bad, but that film was the absolute worst. |
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Post by Confessor on Jul 21, 2014 4:47:31 GMT -5
If what you're looking for is character development (and that's what I've gotten from your previous posts), then watching isolated episodes probably isn't going to deliver that. Ummm...no, not character development, so much. Just characters that engage. You can watch any old random episode of ST:TOS and the dynamic between Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley (not forgetting the other core cast members) is instantly rewarding to the viewer. What the original cast had was chemistry and that's hard to pin down, but you know it when you see it. That chemistry is what makes the OS so watchable in my opinion, even if a particular episode had a sub-par story or was centred around some ridiculous concept. |
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Post by Confessor on Jul 21, 2014 4:48:11 GMT -5
Nothing to see here. Move along.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 21, 2014 5:40:32 GMT -5
. (...) but starting with Season Two, the show just got progressively better and better, and I ultimately came to care about that cast of characters as if they were real people I knew -- full of hopes, fears, beauty, ugliness, and (unlike any other Trek show) the writers ensured that EVERYTHING that happened to them counted and didn't get forgotten a few episodes down the line. Seconded! DS9 reached depths of characterization I would never have suspected after the show's first few seasons. Toward the end I would have been content to watch an entire episode of Quark arguing with Odo, so well had their personalities been crafted. The ongoing development of all major characters gave the writers great opportunities, and on DS9 the result was amazing (while on Voyager it was a bit of a mess). The increasingly interesting politics were also pretty neat, although other shows did equally well in that regard... but things like O'Brien and Bashir's friendship, which developed onscreen apparently by accident, made these people especially real to me. Since the station didn't move around, we also had time to explore alien cultures in more detail, and most of them turned out to be richer than expected; even the Ferengi's caricatural capitalism was shown to have virtues! |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 21, 2014 12:08:31 GMT -5
If what you're looking for is character development (and that's what I've gotten from your previous posts), then watching isolated episodes probably isn't going to deliver that. Ummm...no, not character development, so much. Just characters that engage. You can watch any old random episode of ST:TOS and the dynamic between Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley (not forgetting the other core cast members) is instantly rewarding to the viewer. What the original cast had was chemistry and that's hard to pin down, but you know it when you see it. That chemistry is what makes the OS so watchable in my opinion, even if a particular episode had a sub-par story or was centred around some ridiculous concept. Ah, got it now. Next Generation didn't have this to the same degree, I concur. I think it came out best when they played poker in Riker's quarters, or pretty much when anyone tried to talk to Worf off-duty, but it wasn't there all the time. The characters were stronger and deeper, but they didn't play off of each other as vibrantly and as consistently. However, I do feel DS9 met TOS in this regard, especially with such a robust and character-rich supporting cast. It wasn't there in Season One so much, and it was a gradual evolution, but by the end, that cast felt like a real family -- dysfunction and all. |
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 21, 2014 15:47:34 GMT -5
I would agree TNG doesn't have the same chemistry. It just has strong characters, particularly Picard, Worf, and yes I'm going to say Data. But if you haven't liked what you've seen, you probably won't.
Everybody is right about DS9 though. That has a fascinating interplay of characters and personalities. And it's true it isn't evident from the start. The first season is generally a bit rough, but it fits well with the evolution of the show. The plot advances, the characters grow, the relationships deepen. Odo/Quark, Sisko/Dukat, Bashir/O'Brien, etc. etc.
But DS9, unlike the previous two series, really works best in order. Watched from beginning to end. It can't really be appreciated or even particularly intelligently discussed otherwise.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 21, 2014 18:57:22 GMT -5
Yeah, that's like me...I'm a fan of the OS and the attendant films, but not a fan of Star Trek as a franchise. I'm also not into the minutiae of Star Trek trivia and what not, even for the stuff I like. I just like the stories and characters for what they are and have no desire to get bogged down in the nerdy detail. However, I am a proper Star Wars nut and could bore your legs off with all kinds of useless in-universe trivia from that franchise. There was only one thing that I remember even as a young kid watching SW that peeked my interest and stayed with me until someone wrote Crimson Empire. I always thought those royal guards (as I called them in my brain) were so mysterious and in the back ground. They seemed more intimidating than Vader or a storm trooper or any random bounty hunter. I was rather pleased with story in that comic even with all the years of wondering. I still haven't read the second mini and have since sold the first one. But that's about the only SW I looked into outside the movies. |
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Post by Confessor on Jul 22, 2014 6:11:26 GMT -5
There was only one thing that I remember even as a young kid watching SW that peeked my interest and stayed with me until someone wrote Crimson Empire. I always thought those royal guards (as I called them in my brain) were so mysterious and in the back ground. They seemed more intimidating than Vader or a storm trooper or any random bounty hunter. I was rather pleased with story in that comic even with all the years of wondering. I still haven't read the second mini and have since sold the first one. But that's about the only SW I looked into outside the movies. Yeah, I agree....even as a kid, the Emperor's Royal Guard looked intriguing. One of the (few) cool little things about The Phantom Menace was noticing that the Galactic Senate Guards were similar looking to the later Royal Guard: their robes were blue and their helmets were open faced, but otherwise quite similar to the guards that we saw in ROTJ. You really got a sense of how the later guards had evolved out of the Senate Guards. Here's a comparison pic...  Crimson Empire was pretty good, but not overly memorable I find. There are actually three mini-series in total now...the third one came out a couple of years ago. I'd read CE and CE II back in the day and I re-read them, along with Crimson Empire III, once all six issues of that mini had been published. I really enjoyed reading the three minis back-to-back, but I'd be hard pressed to tell you much about the story. The series is weird, in that, the stories are really engaging while your reading them, but they don't seem to make much of a lasting impression. |
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 24, 2014 16:07:49 GMT -5
The next two films are from the chief-enforcer-of-a-questionable-law-ends-up-on-the-run-from-it. I have already mentioned Equilibrium, one of the weaker examples of the genre. Two stronger examples are still to come.
90. Logan's Run (Anderson, 1976)
If you're like me, when you hear Logan's Run, your first thought is of the issue of the comic that featured the battle between Thanos and Drax. But it turns out that before the Marvel series was this movie starring Jenny Agutter and... well, I forget who else.
In some sense this movie has aged, and should probably have been put to sleep for good in 2006.
But it remains a fascinating look at a world dedicated to hedonism, where an ignortant humanity blissfully accepted rule by machines and that the price of paradise was death at age 30. Except, to participate in the deadly ceremony they thought would lead not to death but to renewal. The other option was to run. But Sandmen killed the runners. Except this was not called killing but termination.
Jenny Agutter and... somebody else venture forth from the city, and learn the fate of those who successfully escaped in the past. Promises of paradise should never be trusted. On the outside they learn what humanity has lost. The idea of family, the joy of growing old.
And they learn what a cat is.
89. Minority Report (Spielberg, 2002)
In the future, police use psychics to stop murder before it happens-- and arrest the culprits-to-be.
This is obviously a moral edge case, arresting people who have committed no crime. The argument that the suspects were definitely going to is somewhat countered by the fact that they didn't. The police chief demonstrates the effect of rolling a ball off a table. Somebody catches it, but it would have otherwise hit the floor.
Now, in the first example we see, the suspect already has his sharp object in hand and is about to bring it down towards his wife when he is stopped. So he can be unambiguously arrested for attempted murder. (Unless you believe Sideshow Bob on the matter: "Attempted murder... do they give a Nobel prize for attempted chemistry?") It's not clear he can unambiguously be placed into an indefinite hibernation without trial, but that's another matter. This is also apparently a world where the right against unwarranted search is just gone.
The movie expands on the premise of Dick's short story to create an action thriller. It is generally clever, showing us a system where murder is possible, then showing how to commit a murder. (For the best example of a murder in a world where psychics make murder impossible, I recommend Bester's Demolished Man)
We also see a world where people are constantly being tracked by their retinal scans. Their location is always known and advertizements are constantly targeted at them. This world is reminiscent of today's. My phone knows my location and everything I type into my e-mail or on social media helps advertizers target me.
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