shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 11, 2016 20:17:05 GMT -5
I actually did far too much research on how metals are generally ranked in various contexts throughout our culture. Brass is almost always what follows Copper (though I did see Iron in one example), but Aluminum gets left out because, at various points in history, it's actually been considered more precious than Silver (and sometimes even Gold). Now the foil COVER era...that's quite different  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2016 20:32:37 GMT -5
Found this Chart in the Internetapocolytesworldofcomics.blogspot.comThe link is the source of this chart I just don't know if any agree with this or not - it's pretty darn close to my understanding here.
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Post by hondobrode on Jan 11, 2016 20:36:22 GMT -5
I have to agree with Crimebuster about 1980 being a demarcation point.
There was definitely the rise of the Direct Market with Marvel's release of John Byrne's Silver Surfer # 1, only available directly, as well as the rise of Pacific Comics with the launch of Captain Victory by Jack Kirby.
Pretty much the beginning of the end of the newsstand and the meteoric rise of the Direct Market.
Don't know when I'd cut that off. I see COIE as a turning point, but probably 1986 would be the watershed year of something more sophisticated with both Dark Knight and Watchmen coming out that year and forever altering how we look at the form of comics itself.
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Post by hondobrode on Jan 11, 2016 20:53:08 GMT -5
Let me strike what I said earlier about Dark Knight and Watchmen.
While both very important works, I think the turning point in the Speculation Age would be either Spider-Man # 1 or X-Men # 1, though I guess I'd agree to go with Spider-Man #1 as the turning point that came first. X-Men came later, and bigger. McFarlane and the gang were still at Marvel and things were going crazy.
Not following the metals, but I'd call 1980-1990 the Direct Age and after that the Speculation Age. Though the market crashed before Walking Dead # 1, I'd consider that the start of the Creator-Owned Age.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 11, 2016 23:21:18 GMT -5
So, you guys are saying the Bronze age ended in the era 80s, when indy publishers started appearing? I guess I could go with that, though that's really unspecific... are you talking Cerebus #1? TMNT getting a cartoon? Marvel giving in to the indy pressure and Starting Epic?
As far as Superhero comics go, I don't see much difference from the late 70s to the early 80s... not until event-itis started with Secret Wars and Crisis.
Also, Walking Dead #1 is NOT a turning point of anything.. nobody outside a comic book store knew what it was until the TV show. The Avengers movie makes alot more sense as the start of the 'Modern' era to me if you're not going to go with the start of the New 52.
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 12, 2016 2:31:44 GMT -5
For me, most of the defining traits of the Copper Age do not hinge on the Big Two, which is one reason why I don't consider the Bronze Age to last until Crisis/Secret Wars. Two major things were happening around 1980: the birth of the Direct Market and the corresponding rise in Independent publishers, like First, Eclipse, Pacific, and dozens more. Those trends started in the late 70's, but really blew up around 80/81. While the content of the Big Two might not have changed a lot, the industry itself changed drastically. I can't really consider stuff like American Flagg, Grim Jack, or Nexus to be Bronze Age books. Also a good point. The eighties were very different from the seventies in a lot of ways. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 12, 2016 2:44:05 GMT -5
Found this Chart in the Internetapocolytesworldofcomics.blogspot.comThe link is the source of this chartI just don't know if any agree with this or not - it's pretty darn close to my understanding here. I've always considered the Golden Age to have begun in 1935, not 1938-with the publication of New Fun #1, but aside from that, the rest looks more or less in line with my thinking (I still say 1980 rather than '83 for Bronze Age, though. Is 1897 generally accepted as the earliest point where comics were seen in America? The UK already had a thriving comics industry by then. Comic Cuts (easily the most successful of the pre-20th century launched titles, which lasted until 1953) began in 1890. The earliest original comics material I've ever heard of was in The Glasgow Looking Glass in 1825, and the earliest continuing character appears to have been Ally Sloper, who first appeared in Judy in 1867 and received his own title in 1884. |
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jan 12, 2016 2:56:03 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure why 1897 specifically. It might have been when the first collection of Yellow Kid stories was published? Just guessing. Yellow Kid first appeared in newspapers in 1895.
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Post by coke & comics on Jan 12, 2016 2:58:26 GMT -5
So it would appear that I had a pretty big misconception about the Copper Age. I'd always believed it began with Crisis on Infinite Earths, not ended with it. That really shakes up my perspective on all that followed, as well. I think where I struggle most is in reconciling that there was a definite movement towards darker and more adult in the mainstream American comic book of 1986-1990 or so, but, with the launching of Spider-Man #1 in August 1990, I feel like there was a major shift again, this time away from storytelling and storytellers, and towards speculation, innovative marketing, and high profile artists that ended sometime between 1994 and 1996, when the majority of comic book fans got sick of the substance-less hype they'd been buying into and left. So maybe that's all one age, beginning with Crisis on Infinite Earths and Secret Wars in 1985 and extending out to 1995 or 1996? I really really haven't followed modern comics much since that time (other than a brief return in 2006), so I'm probably one of the least qualified people here to define that era. But maybe the Brass Era would be 1985-1995, with a Tin era following from 1996-2006, and a Modern Era beginning in 2007 with the popularity of the Iron Man film and the Walking Dead TV series, as coke & comics pointed out. Is this working better? As I said, I'm more interested in the key issues than the dates. What foundational comics do you think define this Tin era? I'm not sure I agree an era begins anywhere close to here, as I would want more defining characteristics, but I can point out a few comics, at least within Marvel which I know best. Avengers #1, and more generally the Heroes Return line, saw a return to a classical storytelling sense and a focus on having a great writer. With a more modern sense of storytelling, but still with the emphasis on strong writing (as well as art), we see the Marvel Knights line. Four great series, but I'll pick out Inhumans #1 as the best of them. Though Black Panther #1 is close. Daredevil #1 is notable for bringing in a filmmaker with a reputation (or at least cult following) for strong scripting. And a year later, we get Ultimate Spider-Man #1, again with a clear intent to bring in a top writer and tell a good story. These series from 1998-1999 mark a shift away from the hype to stronger stories for Marvel. 1996 seems way too soon to end the speculator era. 1996-1997 was Heroes Reborn Era. Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld returned to Marvel to Image it up. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 12, 2016 3:05:49 GMT -5
I almost view 1998-2001 to be a mini return to the Bronze Age for Marvel. This is far too short a time to merit any sort of "age" distinction, but it did seem to be the last gasp at Marvel of attempting to update the "all-ages" approach and appeal to as wide a demographic as possible. On a personal level, it was the last time I enjoyed reading Marvel as a line of comics. I think it might have been the last gasp for good characterization and good continuity as well.
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Post by coke & comics on Jan 12, 2016 3:18:31 GMT -5
Oops.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 12, 2016 8:55:15 GMT -5
As I said, I'm more interested in the key issues than the dates. What foundational comics do you think define this Tin era? I'm not sure I agree an era begins anywhere close to here, as I would want more defining characteristics, but I can point out a few comics, at least within Marvel which I know best.. As this is an era defined best by a decline in sales and interest, I'm not sure that can be pinpointed to a specific issue. By 1996, though arguably earlier, the industry was in serious decline. You could, perhaps, point to Knightfall in 1994 as being the end of the previous era, with the decline beginning to set in around that time as the last possible stunt to hype a comic book was pulled and then revoked (the breaking of Batman). Maybe you could point, instead, to the decline of Valiant and the original Image lineup, but, again, there's no specific issue to pinpoint. |
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Post by Paradox on Jan 12, 2016 9:08:39 GMT -5
But that's still basically defining 'ages' purely by what was happening with two specific publishers. That's all it EVER was. As noted many times by others in this thread, add in anyone else and it all falls apart. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 9:27:19 GMT -5
Ok, I can accept Gold-Silver-Bronze categorizations if I have to, but I am not fond of Copper and feel that the metal progression should stop there.
The fourth age I would call the Plastic Age i.e. the age of the bag and board where comics went from a periodical available to the masses to a collector product aimed at a hobby. Where collectibility, not readability was the driving factor behind most of the industries initiatives, decisions, marketing and sales methods. Plastic for the bag and board mentality, and for the artificial nature of the age. I would put the start in the early 80s, with the growth of the comic shop and specifically point to the creation Direct Only Titles by Marvel (i.e. the switch of books like Micronauts and Ka-Zar from regular newsstand books to books only available through subscription or direct market outlets. It followed in the wake of the development of smaller publishers who focused only on the direct market (beginning with publishers like Pacific and Eclipse) and mainstreamed it. DC would follow with a number of projects and formats that were direct only as well.
This age encompasses the grwoth of the direct market, the creation of events to fuel collectibility (everyone from Marvel and DC to First and Eclipse were doing this in American comics so not just big 2 specific), the rise of cross-overs, the new emphasis on creator name recognition to the point were creator names were on covers to make it easier for collectors/followers of certain creators to find their work and buy it in the direct market, the black and white boom and bust, the growth of the importance of solicitations in advance of comics to fuel collector and hardcore fan interest in books culminating in the Previews style catalog we have now, and the release of online solicitations even in advance of those catalogs now, the rise of Image & Valiant and their coupons and incentive issues, the speculator boom and bust, the appearance of comic products hawked on Home Shopping Network by the likes of Dynamic Forces and others, the rise of universe reboots and the proliferation of shared universes outside Marvel and DC to bring collectors interest to products, the growth of covers as gimmick marketing tools culminating in the variant market we have today, the rise of the trade paperback to add to the shelf life of products, etc. etc.
It was a seismic shift in what the goal and focus of the comic industry was about. It changed the focus, the availability and the format of comics, and in turned that shaped the nature of the content appearing in American comics. It is mostly an American phenomenon, and it's an age that has encompassed the entirety of the period from the early 80s until now, and shows no signs of any of those trends going away.
The one caveat I will put out there is that digital is a step away from this and a major step back towards comics as more disposable entertainment meant to be consumed not collected.
There has always been an element of collecting in comics from the Silver Age onwards, but comics on the newsstands throughout the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age were still periodicals meant to be consumed and disposed of. A fraction of the consumers developed the collector mentality, but it was not the entirety of the industry focus that it became beginning in waning parts of the Bronze Age, until the collector/hardcore fan mentality became the dominant paradigm and driving force of comics.
Everything since then has been driven by that mentality among the consumers, the producers, and the facilitators. The huge growth of the convention circuit, the presence of comics on ebay, the growth of an entire industry selling supplies to preserve comics (from BCW to Mylites to CGC), reboots, relaunches, #1's, mini-series, continuity clean-ups, mega events, variant covers, collections of older material, the loss of the newsstands, etc. etc. all driven by the paradigm shift which occurred in the early 80s when collectibiliy trumped all other aspects of the world of American comics.
-M
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 12, 2016 10:10:08 GMT -5
Ok, I can accept Gold-Silver-Bronze categorizations if I have to, but I am not fond of Copper and feel that the metal progression should stop there. The fourth age I would call the Plastic Age i.e. the age of the bag and board where comics went form a periodical available to the masses to a collector product aimed at a hobby. Where collectibility, not readability was the driving factor behind most of the industries initiatives, decisions, marketing and sales methods. Plastic for the bag and board mentality, and for the artificial nature of the age. I would put the start in the early 80s, with the growth of the comic shop and specifically point to the creation Direct Only Titles by Marvel (i.e. the switch of books like Micronauts and Ka-Zar from regular newsstand books to books only available through subscription or direct market outlets. It followed in the wake of the development of smaller publishers who focused only on the direct market (beginning with publishers like Pacific and Eclipse) and mainstreamed it. DC would follow with a number of projects and formats that were direct only as well. This age encompasses the grwoth of the direct market, the creation of events to fuel collectibility (everyone from MArvle and DC to First and Eclipse were doing this in American comics so not just big 2 specific), the rise of cross-overs, the new emphasis on creator name recognition to the point were creator names were on covers to make it easier for collectors/followers of certain creators to find their work and buy it in the direct market, the black and white boom and bust, the growth of the importance of solicitations in advance of comics to fuel collector and hardcore fan interest in books culminating in the Previews style catalog we have now and the release of online solicitations even in advance of those catalogs now, the rise of Image Valiant and their coupons and incentive issues, the speculator boom and bust, the appearance of comic products hawked on Home Shopping Network by the likes of Dynamic Forces and others, the rise of universe reboots and the proliferation of shared universes outside Marvel and DC to bring collectors interest to products, the growth of covers as gimmick marketing tools culminating in the variant market we have today, the rise of the trade paperback to add to the shelf life of products, etc. etc. It was a seismic shift in what the goal and focus of the comic industry was about. It changed the focus, the availability and the format of comics, and in turned that shaped the nature of the content appearing in American comics. It is mostly an American phenomenon, and it's an age that has encompassed the entirety of the period from the early 80s until now, and shows no signs of any of those trends going away. The one caveat I will put out there is that digital is a step away form this and a major step back towards comics as more disposable entertainment meant to be consumed not collected. There has always been an element of collecting in comics form the Silver Age onwards, but comics on the newsstands throughout the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age were still periodicals meant to be consumed and disposed of. A fraction of the consumers developed the collector mentality, but it was not the entirety of the industry focus that it became beginning in waning parts of the Bronze Age, until the collector/hardcore fan mentality became the dominant paradigm and driving force of comics. Everything since then has been driven by that mentality among the consumers, the producers, and the facilitators. The huge growth of the convention circuit, the presence of comics on ebay, the growth of an entire industry selling supplies to preserve comics (from BCW to Mylites to CGC), reboots, relaunches, #1's, mini-series, continuity clean-ups, mega events, variant covers, collection s of older material, the loss of the newsstands, etc. etc. all driven by the paradigm shift which occurred in the early 80s when collectibiliy trumped all other aspects of the world of American comics. -M I've heard the term "Plastic Age" before, but never explained so fully and convincingly. Make Mine Plastic! |
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