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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 4, 2016 18:46:46 GMT -5
When I first saw that issue at a newsstand, I couldn't yet read English. Our French translations would always be many months late relative to the originals, and What if..? wasn't translated anyway... so i was unaware of the series' concept and was convinced that Tony Stark actually had died in that issue! The idea of giving armours to every Avenger is a pretty logical one, and it was funny to see how it turned out here. It's as if Shooter had wanted to explain why such a move wasn't made in the real Marvel Universe, which is commendable, but let's face it: it's downright silly. If the armour proves to be harder to handle than people first thought, they simply should work harder at it! What was the French title, out of curiosity? was not translated, alas. Had it been, the title would probably have been "Et si..?" |
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Post by coke & comics on Feb 5, 2016 4:02:53 GMT -5
When I first saw that issue at a newsstand, I couldn't yet read English. Our French translations would always be many months late relative to the originals, and What if..? wasn't translated anyway... so i was unaware of the series' concept and was convinced that Tony Stark actually had died in that issue! The idea of giving armours to every Avenger is a pretty logical one, and it was funny to see how it turned out here. It's as if Shooter had wanted to explain why such a move wasn't made in the real Marvel Universe, which is commendable, but let's face it: it's downright silly. If the armour proves to be harder to handle than people first thought, they simply should work harder at it! It actually seemed a bit illogical in the context of the comic. Giant-Man and Wasp already had super powers and still decided to quit being superheroes and become civilians. It's actually not clear why the promise of a new type of superpower should tempt them back. It would have made sense if he'd found Rick Jones and similar people: people without powers who hadn't already declined Avengers membership. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 5, 2016 11:44:46 GMT -5
When I first saw that issue at a newsstand, I couldn't yet read English. Our French translations would always be many months late relative to the originals, and What if..? wasn't translated anyway... so i was unaware of the series' concept and was convinced that Tony Stark actually had died in that issue! The idea of giving armours to every Avenger is a pretty logical one, and it was funny to see how it turned out here. It's as if Shooter had wanted to explain why such a move wasn't made in the real Marvel Universe, which is commendable, but let's face it: it's downright silly. If the armour proves to be harder to handle than people first thought, they simply should work harder at it! It actually seemed a bit illogical in the context of the comic. Giant-Man and Wasp already had super powers and still decided to quit being superheroes and become civilians. It's actually not clear why the promise of a new type of superpower should tempt them back. It would have made sense if he'd found Rick Jones and similar people: people without powers who hadn't already declined Avengers membership. Perhaps Tony is a bit of a snob who thought anyone who didn't have powers already couldn't cut it; as for Hank and Jan, they might have been convinced by the added protection an armour would confer. Of course, this is comic-book logic at best... it's pretty hard to make sense of a world in which putting on a costume to beat up "bad guys" is considered rational! :-) |
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Post by sabongero on Feb 5, 2016 18:15:05 GMT -5
 What If…? #4: The Invaders had Stayed Together After World War Two?
50 Cents @ August 1977 (Cover Page and 34 net pages) Co-Conjurers of Cosmic Cacophony: Roy Thomas & Frank Robbins Embellisher: Frank Springer Colorist: George Bell Rosen Letterer: Costanza Watcher Quote: “It was one of the saddest, grimmest moments of a sad and grim war. I know, for did I not witness them all, from here on Earth’s moon as thru a glass darkly. Is that not the destiny and curse of the Watcher.” “For two Captain Americas had perished these past twelve months, on the altar of their country… and of mankind. They were not the first pair of brave men to do so… and they were not to be the last. Still, the land… and the human race… would go on. And I would learn that they also suffer… who only stand and watch!” Synopsis: This issue showed the World War Two exploits of the superhero group, The Invaders. It was predominantly towards the end of World War Two. Captain America and Bucky were overpowered by Baron Zemo and his gigantic android. The two were tied to a fighter plane which was set to go off but their ropes were severed by another Captain America Shield that came out of nowhere and just vanished accordingly. They commandeer a motorcycle and chase after the fighter plane and it flew with Bucky and Steve Rogers clinging to a wing. Captain America let go and wanted Bucky to do the same but the young one did not. And as Steve Rogers started falling off, at that instant, the plane blew up. Bucky was dead and Captain America fell to the ocean below. In our regular 616 universe we knew what happened next… which was Captain America being frozen in ice in suspended animation. The Watcher continued to narrate the story. The original Human Torch and his sidekick Toro fought their way to Berlin and made it to the Fuhrer’s bunker. Hitler who was in the act of committing suicide saw the two heroes and was in the process of pushing a button next to him that would have blown up the bunker with the two heroes in it as well. In order to prevent the Fuhrer from blowing up the bunker, the Human Torch set Hitler ablaze. And that was how Hitler died in this alternate universe. On the other side of the planet, Namor is battling Japanese warships in the Pacific. In England, the heroine, Spitfire, and hero, Union Jack saved Prime Minister Winston Churchill from a German assassin by preventing a German grenade from reaching Churchill. Then a meeting in London at the closing days of the war, you see all of the Invaders receive the terrible news of Captain America and Bucky were killed in action. An unbelieving Toro screamed that there were no bodies recovered, and that perhaps the two heroes were still alive. Then a military attache advised the remaining heroes to fly over to Washington DC to see the American President, who explained to them why Steve Rogers’ death was kept a secret. The ware with the Japanese is not yet over, and that even after the war, Captain America must live on. And he introduced Captain America and Bucky to the Invaders. At first glance everyone thought it was the original duo. Until, Sub-Mariner pointed out physical characteristics missing from these two that the original had in their physical attributes. The new pair unmasked and Captain America was actually the hero known as The Spirit of ’76 and Buck was Fred Davis who “pinched hit” as Steve Rogers’ partner for Bucky earlier in the war when he was a batboy for the baseball team, NY Yankees. Then they were all joined by Miss American and The Whizzer. Then the seven superheroes went to the East and fought the last days of WW II against the Japanese forces. The atomic bomb was dropped and an armistice was signed aboard a battleship hosted by Five-Star tobacco smoking General Douglas MacArthur. And the war came to a halt. The remaining heroes rebranded themselves as The All Winners Squad, a superhero team after WW II during the late 40’s and 50’s. They fought many villains and even supervillains in the new atomic age. The Human Torch and Toro were ambushed in Boston by an android disguised as Human Torch’s creator, Professor Phineas T. Horton. Upon defeating that android, they were then attacked by an army of androids led by an android named Adam II. Bursting through a wall to make way to the Adam II and instead a strong pressure of water dashed out their flames. The Human Torch flames on just enough to get the sprinklers working to summon the fires department. A superhero named The Patriot responded and saves them. The new Captain America and Bucky comes across presidential candidate, John F. Kennedy. And all of a sudden Kennedy turned to Adam II and the android battled the new Captain America. Apparently the android was there to assassinate the real JFK who was campaigning nearby. More enemy androids join the battle. The battle raged and Captain America managed to get one of the flares away from the android. But then fell in a vice like bear hug grip from the android. Captain America managed to use the flare to take down the android and release him, but with severe physical damage, he collapsed. Meanwhile, the rest of the heroes managed to save the real JFK from Adam II and the villain was destroyed in a car crash. The All Winners Squad celebrate. A teary-eyed Captain America joins them. Bucky approached and was about to talk to Captain America but noticed this wasn’t the second Captain America. He took off his mask, and Captain America revealed he was The Patriot, and that the second Captain America perished earlier. And the story ended in a tragedy with the death of the second Captain America. Comment: There was some cool moments that showcased some character in the book. I am a big fan of Prince Namor, The Sub-Mariner. It is good to know that Namor wanted the hostilities of World War Two to cease when he was battling the Japanese warship, and that he just wanted to go rule the remnants of the undersea kingdom of Atlantis. It is also heartfelt that Namor would recognize the “fake” Captain America from the real one when the new Captain was introduced to them. This showed how close he and Steve Rogers were as friends. You would recognize your true friend from one that is being passed along as a lookalike replacement. And at the end of the story the death of the second Captain America hurt him as you can see the anguish on his face. Perhaps reminding him of this good friend Steve Rogers dying earlier in the story. I have to be honest that the only character with the briefest of appearances in the story that appealed to me was Namor. And two others even more briefer an appearance than Namor was Buck and Steve Rogers who perished in the beginning of the story. The other characters didn’t really touch a nerve as I wasn’t familiar with them. |
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Post by Phil Maurice on Feb 5, 2016 18:46:01 GMT -5
In order to prevent the Fuhrer from blowing up the bunker, the Human Torch set Hitler ablaze. And that was how Hitler died in this alternate universe. 
This is, I think, the first really rockin' issue of What If? and a story that rose to the ambitious premise of the series. Naturally, it's a great showcase for Roy Thomas' love of Golden Age Timely and the World War II era of comics in general. A terrific book that totally justifies the then-exorbitant 50-cent price tag. Excellent review as well, sabongero! 
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Post by sabongero on Feb 5, 2016 19:15:52 GMT -5
In order to prevent the Fuhrer from blowing up the bunker, the Human Torch set Hitler ablaze. And that was how Hitler died in this alternate universe.
This is, I think, the first really rockin' issue of What If? and a story that rose to the ambitious premise of the series. Naturally, it's a great showcase for Roy Thomas' love of Golden Age Timely and the World War II era of comics in general. A terrific book that totally justifies the then-exorbitant 50-cent price tag. Excellent review as well, sabongero!
I loved the story. I wasn't really familiar with the Golden Age characters. It was nice to see them in a comic book, but those characters didn't do it for me. I loved the brief appearances of the original Cap and Bucky, and Namor's sporadic appearances with great internal monologue giving him characterization. It's just that I felt with the other heroes, it could have just been other generic heroes could have taken their place in the story. But the story, I loved it. It was fantastic. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 5, 2016 20:20:14 GMT -5
In order to prevent the Fuhrer from blowing up the bunker, the Human Torch set Hitler ablaze. And that was how Hitler died in this alternate universe.
This is, I think, the first really rockin' issue of What If? and a story that rose to the ambitious premise of the series. Naturally, it's a great showcase for Roy Thomas' love of Golden Age Timely and the World War II era of comics in general. A terrific book that totally justifies the then-exorbitant 50-cent price tag. Excellent review as well, sabongero!
It's my understanding that, even thought it was an What If ? story, this tale is the actual accepted events of the MU proper. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 5, 2016 21:06:46 GMT -5
Yeah, the 50s Cap and Spirit of '76 are talked about in Thomas' Invaders book... and I think it's even mentioned in the INvaders revival a couple years ago.
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Post by coke & comics on Feb 6, 2016 14:52:21 GMT -5
I think I was less a fan of #4 than those here seem to be. In some sense, it's cool how seamlessly it fits into the MU (mainly because all the old Captain America stories had already been retconned beyond recognition) but I think that means it lacks a strong "What If?" premise beyond, "What if Thomas had been able to write another Invaders story?" My main issue is the amount of setup and narration that fills the comic. I think I would have preferred it find its way faster to the battle against Adam II.
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Post by realjla on Feb 6, 2016 15:49:53 GMT -5
Doesn't Thomas actually say on the letters page of # 4 that the story is not a 'true' WHAT IF tale? It is the 'actual' Marvel universe(long before this 'Earth-616' business), and this was RT's way of retconning an explanation for all CA stories between Steve Rogers' disappearance and revival.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Feb 6, 2016 20:21:11 GMT -5
Okay, I understand that this issue is more of a ret-con than a proper What If? tale, as Icctrombone and realjla describe (ashamed to admit I didn't read the letters pages at this stage of my fandom. Cut me some slack; I was nine!  ), reconciling the '46-'49 Captain America stories that hadn't been explained by the Englehart ret-con in '72.
That being the case, it is therefore canon that Hitler was killed by the Human Torch? I'm totally fine with that, but FF #21 shows it was common knowledge that Hitler had many doubles and may even have survived into the 1960s. Also, does that mean that 616 Eva Braun survived?  So many questions. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 20:46:08 GMT -5
I didn't know this story was in What If? I always thought it was in an Invaders Annual.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 7, 2016 1:26:33 GMT -5
Okay, I understand that this issue is more of a ret-con than a proper What If? tale, as Icctrombone and realjla describe (ashamed to admit I didn't read the letters pages at this stage of my fandom. Cut me some slack; I was nine! ), reconciling the '46-'49 Captain America stories that hadn't been explained by the Englehart ret-con in '72.
That being the case, it is therefore canon that Hitler was killed by the Human Torch? I'm totally fine with that, but FF #21 shows it was common knowledge that Hitler had many doubles and may even have survived into the 1960s. Also, does that mean that 616 Eva Braun survived? So many questions. You got the slack, PM. I don't remember where i read it, but the story seemed to make sense as a part of the WW2 history and where the Captain Americas came from. One of the staples of each What If ? story is that someone dies who didn't die in the 616 universe. That didn't seem to happen in this story. |
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Post by Action Ace on Feb 7, 2016 1:27:46 GMT -5
I didn't know this story was in What If? I always thought it was in an Invaders Annual. I also thought it was an Invaders issue when I first picked it up. |
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Post by coke & comics on Feb 7, 2016 1:37:37 GMT -5
Okay, I understand that this issue is more of a ret-con than a proper What If? tale, as Icctrombone and realjla describe (ashamed to admit I didn't read the letters pages at this stage of my fandom. Cut me some slack; I was nine! ::) ), reconciling the '46-'49 Captain America stories that hadn't been explained by the Englehart ret-con in '72.
That being the case, it is therefore canon that Hitler was killed by the Human Torch? I'm totally fine with that, but FF #21 shows it was common knowledge that Hitler had many doubles and may even have survived into the 1960s. Also, does that mean that 616 Eva Braun survived? :P So many questions. Thanks to the various clones and the science of Arnim Zola, it's possible Hitler was killed by Torch and survived. Somebody had to become the Hate Monger! |
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), reconciling the '46-'49 Captain America stories that hadn't been explained by the Englehart ret-con in '72.
So many questions.