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Post by dupersuper on Mar 3, 2016 20:57:25 GMT -5
Wait, what? Raped? Are you talking about Marvel Thor or mythological Thor? There was a storyline where the Celestials were introduced and Odin placed the essence of some Asgardians in different places. It ran from #284-300, anyway Thor raped Valkrie. I don't remember the other particulars since I haven't read it in years. Maybe someone else can jump in and fill in the blanks. That...sounds horrible.
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Post by realjla on Mar 3, 2016 22:12:40 GMT -5
Nick Fury whispered *something*, a secret in Thor's ear. As soon as he heard it, he immediately became unworthy to wield Mjolnir. Since Thor became unworthy at exactly that moment, what Fury told him can't be the revelation of something Thor did in the past (because the god of thunder would have become unworthy at the time he committed the reprehensible act, not just when it was put under his nose. So what can Fury have told him? My only guess it's that it's the filthiest joke ever. By finding it funny, Thor proved himself not to have the noble character gods of thunder require. If we see the Odinson chuckle uncontrollably at inappropriate times in the coming months we'll know that we're on so something. I like the 'dirty joke' theory': "Yon minstrel troop hath called the routine, 'The Aristocrats', friend Fury? In sooth...BWAH-HA-HA!"(worthiness forfeited).
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 3, 2016 23:49:31 GMT -5
There was a storyline where the Celestials were introduced and Odin placed the essence of some Asgardians in different places. It ran from #284-300, anyway Thor raped Valkrie. I don't remember the other particulars since I haven't read it in years. Maybe someone else can jump in and fill in the blanks. That...sounds horrible. Sorry. No rape. I just re-read the story and Odin placed Thors essence inside a person that ended up stealing another person wife. I guess adultery but not rape. Maybe that makes him unworthy.
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Post by dupersuper on Mar 4, 2016 0:34:11 GMT -5
Sorry. No rape. I just re-read the story and Odin placed Thors essence inside a person that ended up stealing another person wife. I guess adultery but not rape. Maybe that makes him unworthy. Few. I would've thought a rape would follow Thor around at least as badly as slapping Janet follows Hank...
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 4, 2016 9:29:05 GMT -5
That was the adaptation of Wagner's Ring, with Thor and Val playing the parts of different characters at different times. As in the opera Die Walküre, Siegmund (Thor in mortal form) slept with his own long-lost sister Sieglinde who was married to the brutal Hunding. Incest and adultery, sure, but no rape as the two had fallen instantly in love when they met.
This would rouse the anger of Frigga, Odin's wife, who is also protector of marriages. She insisted that Siegmund be put to death, but Odin's envoy (also his daughter), Brunnhilde the walkyrie, was touched by the purity of the love between Siegmund and Sieglinde and by the bravery of the lad. She defied her father's orders to no avail, as Odin himself intervened in the duel between Siegmund and Hunding to ensure the hero's demise. After this, the rebellious Brunnhilde was condemned to a long sleep on a mountaintop, from which any man could claim her for his bride. The sole concession she got from her father was that a wall of fire guard her inanimate form, so that only the bravest of men would dare go claim her for his bride.
Who would manage such a feat? None other than Siegfried, the son of Siegmund and Sieglinde... who was also Thor in mortal form. Thor/Siegmund won the hand of Brunnhilde (more incest... what is this, Game of thrones?) but both perished soon thereafter.
I liked the adaptation of the opera and the connection between the Ring, the Odinsword, Götterdämmerung amd Ragnarok (with the Celestials thrown in) but the reincarnation bits were a little confusing and would have worked as well had Siegmund and Siegfried been their own characters and not Thor in mortal form.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 4, 2016 10:34:25 GMT -5
That was the adaptation of Wagner's Ring, with Thor and Val playing the parts of different characters at different times. As in the opera Die Walküre, Siegmund (Thor in mortal form) slept with his own long-lost sister Sieglinde who was married to the brutal Hunding. Incest and adultery, sure, but no rape as the two had fallen instantly in love when they met. This would rouse the anger of Frigga, Odin's wife, who is also protector of marriages. She insisted that Siegmund be put to death, but Odin's envoy (also his daughter), Brunnhilde the walkyrie, was touched by the purity of the love between Siegmund and Sieglinde and by the bravery of the lad. She defied her father's orders to no avail, as Odin himself intervened in the duel between Siegmund and Hunding to ensure the hero's demise. After this, the rebellious Brunnhilde and was condemned to a long sleep on a mountaintop, from which any man could claim her for his bride. The sole concession she got from her father was that a wall of fire guard her inanimate form, so that only the bravest of men would dare go claim her for his bride. Who would manage such a feat? None other than Siegfried, the son of Siegmund and Sieglinde... who was also Thor in mortal form. Thor/Siegmund won the hand of Brunnhilde (more incest... what is this, Game of thrones?) but both perished soon thereafter. I liked the adaptation of the opera and the connection between the Ring, the Odinsword, Götterdämmerung amd Ragnarok (with the Celestials thrown in) but the reincarnation bits were a little confusing and would have worked as well had Siegmund and Siegfried been their own characters and not Thor in mortal form. Great recap. I re-read it last night, it was gripping stuff. Roy Thomas seemed to throw everything and the Kitchen sink in that Celestials story.
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Post by sabongero on Mar 18, 2016 19:52:17 GMT -5
What If…? #12: Rick Jones had Become The Hulk? 60 Cents @ December 1978 (Cover Page and 34 net pages) Writer: Don Glut Artist: Sal Buscema Inking: Bill Black Colorist: Roussos Letterer: Patterson Consulting Editor: Jim Shooter Editor: Roy Thomas Watcher Quote: “I am the Watcher. And I ponder the possibility, what if Rick Jones had become the Hulk?” “How true is the prognosis of Rick Jones. For where else but in the Negative Zone could the Hulk enjoy such unbridled freedom? Freedom to bound through an entire universe… to exercise the vast power in those emerald limbs… Where, but here, can the Hulk know respect, admiration, and perhaps even love. As the mighty and noble champion who liberated one and all from the tyranny and oppression of Annihilus? I should like to know or such a place. For I am… the Watcher.” Synopsis: The story starts with the origin of the Hulk. We know what happened in the Marvel 616 Universe. In this universe, something else happened. Dr. Banner and Rick Jones was running for the safety of the trench but instead of pushing Rick, Banner tripped and fell to the trench at the same instant the gamma rays and bombarded Rick Jones. Back at the lab, Rick Jones who was being examined by Dr. Banner, underwent a transformation that turned him to the green monster, the Hulk. The Hulk smashed the side wall of the building and caused enough noise that he was faced by a group of soldiers from the U.S. Army. The Hulk leaped and left the area. As the soldiers combed the surrounding area, Dr. Banner combed the area and found the Hulk, who wasn’t pleased with him. As daylight came, the Hulk got a headache and reverted back to Rick Jones in front of Dr. Banner. Banner brought Rick back to his lab and in a doubly strengthened reinforced room, he hid Rick there for the nights when Rick would turn to the Hulk. And this went on as Dr. Banner worked on a cure for Rick. Meanwhile, the Hulk’s disappearance disappointed General Thunderbolt Ross, who planned on chasing and capturing the green monster. In far off Asgard, an imprisoned Loki plots to defeat his half-brother, Thor. He scanned the Earth for a monster, and came across Rick Jones and Dr. Banner who has found a cure to prevent Rick from transforming to the Hulk. They will test it out the following morning. Loki was determined not to let time pass and used his mischievous magic and insert a hypnotic suggestion into Rick Jones’ subconscious to think it is nightfall, and turn him to the green monster. It worked. Banner quickly zapped Rick with the gamma ray and reverted the Hulk back to Rick, but the hypnotic suggestion was too strong as Rick turned back to the Hulk. Loki deduced in this instance that Asgardian magic was more powerful than Earthly science. The Hulk destroyed Dr. Banner’s gamma ray machine and bolted out of the building. A gleeful Loki watched the Hulk escape and mentally made a hallucinatory bomb that looked like it was tied to a bridge. Hulk believed the hallucination and destroyed the bomb along with the bridge. This prompted the Avengers to enter the melee, but everything was worked out, and the Avengers was formed with the only difference in this original incarnation was the Hulk was Rick Jones. The Avengers were on a mission atop Stark’s factory, which Dr. Banner just happened to be at the time. The commotion above got his attention, and he zapped the Hulk with the gamma ray. The Hulk reverted back to Rick Jones, he is finally cured. Time passed and Rick came across Captain America battling a group of HYDRA soldiers. He helped Captain America defeat this bunch, and he had a conversation with Captain America. Rick underwent high intensity training and at the end he was given Bucky’s costume, and he and Captain America battled HYDRA in little mini wars. During one of the battles though, Rick started losing control and changed to the Hulk. He wiped out the HYDRA soldiers, but Captain America pleaded with him to stand down as his enormous strength would kill the HYDRA men. Hulk stomped out. Time passed and Rick was on the road hitchhiking to town, and he encountered a glowing image of Captain America. He chased after the glowing image, but it disappeared and instead Rick found his wrist wearing the Nega Bands. Captain Marvel appeared and instructed Rick who proceeded to slam his wrists together with all his might, which brought Rick to the Negative Zone and thus freeing Captain Marvel. Unfortunately, Rick was now in the presence of Annihilus, the tyrant of the Negative Zone. Annihilus decreed that all beings in Rick’s dimension must die. Rick found out he can’t transform to the Hulk, but that he did have a lot of mental powers and was able to take down Annihilus. Rick had the mental powers of the Kree Supreme Intelligence. After the end of the Kree-Skrull war that happened in the Avengers comic books, Captain Marvel and the Avengers found Rick Jones unconscious due to mental power overload, and the only way to save him was with Captain Marvel becoming one with Rick Jones once again by giving Rick his life force. Thus Rick Jones was saved. Rick wasn’t pleased to be a “Jeckyll and Hyde” team with Marvel as one unit again. Time passed and Rick auditioned in a Soho bar, and was introduced to a young lade named Lou Ann. Walking home with her one day, they encountered a villain named Megaton who hungered for energy. Sensing the energy from Rick’s Nega Bands he went after him, and Rick choosing between the Hulk or Marvel decided to bang his wrists together to summon Captain Marvel to deal with Megaton in NYC, and they switched places as Rick was placed into the Negative Zone. Lou Ann called Dr. Banner on the phone and upon meeting later, they went to see Reed Richards. Meanwhile, as they tried to come up with a solution to prevent Rick Jones from staying in the dark dimension too long, Captain Marvel was exposed to a nerve gas called Compound Thirteen and started dying. A concerned Rick Jones in the Negative Zone knew if Marvel died, then he is stuck forever in the Negative Zone. Unfortunately, Annihilus found Rick Jones and grabbed his throat with his limbs. And a rapidly working Dr. Banner and Reed Richards finished with their gammatron ray and want to use it on Rick Jones. As Reed Richards scanned the galaxies on his viewscreen, they found the figure of Rick Jones with Annihilus. As Rick unsuccessfully struggled with Annihilus, he turned into the Hulk. And as Hulk proceeded a beat down on Annihilus, he suddenly emerged on Earth and wearing the Nega Bands. A comatose Captain Marvel switched places with him and is now in the Negative Zone under the mercy of Annihilus. Hulk banged his wrists together trying to get rid of the Nega Bands and he is brought back to the Negative Zone. And the Hulk commenced pounding Annahilus once again. Annahilus recovered and they battled like unearthly beings. Meanwhile Reed Richards finally got a lock on the Hulk in his viewscreen and told Dr. Banner to fire his Gammatron ray on the viewscreen. They hit the Hulk and the green monster was split in two, with the Hulk remaining where he was battling Annahilus in the Negative Zone, and Rick Jones back on Earth, and basically being split into two separate entities. Using his stretching powers, Mr. Fantastic stretched going through the viewscreen and struggling as he never stretched so far before, and was able to grab Rick Jones and bring him back through the viewscreen and back to the Baxter Building where Rick was reunited with Lou Ann. In the Negative Zone, the Hulk continued his battle with Annahilus and finally achieving victory and destroying the Negative Zone tyrant. With his victory over Annahilus, the Hulk is left pondering what to do next. On Earth, the curative backlash of the Gammatron not only freed Rick Jones from being the Hulk, but it also liberated Captain Marvel from the Negative Zone and kept him alive. All is well with Captain Marvel, Dr. Banner, Rick Jones and his girlfriend Lou Ann. But what about the Hulk? Rick Jones had a feeling the Hulk will be all right. The story ended with the Hulk liberating the oppressed and being a respected and loved hero in the Negative Zone. And he has the freedom to exercise his vast power. Comments: I didn’t know much about Rick Jones other than the teenager whose recklessness and foolhardiness cost Bruce Banner of having a normal life. It’s good to know about a back story with the Kree hero, Captain Marvel. I have heard of the Nega Bands, but was not familiar of its function. This was another happy ending in a What If story. They are few and far between, but I’ll take it. I have to mention that I loved Sal Buscema’s illustration in this issue. His Hulk was very distinct. You can tell that this is not the Bruce Banner Hulk. It is a younger faced Hulk, and comes across as a teenaged version of the Hulk. I hope he gets more pencil duties in some of the upcoming What If issues.
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Post by sabongero on Apr 6, 2016 21:32:59 GMT -5
What If…? #13: Conan the Barbarian Walked the Earth Today? 60 Cents @ February 1979 (Cover Page and 34 net pages) Writer: Roy Thomas Illustrators: John Buscema & Ernie Chan Colorist: Glynis Wein Letterer: Joe Rosen Consulting Editor: Jim Shooter Editor: Roy Thomas Watcher Quote: “What if the redoubtable Cimmerian had lived and fought in another eon, such as your own? A ludicrous questions… one impossible of an answer? Perhaps… and perhaps not. For, such a thing nearly happened once… though, in your own time continuum, neither he nor any other knew it. Such are the paradoxes of the road not taken… the opportunity missed… the tragedy, perhaps, avoided. I alone know how Conan came with a hair’s breadth of the work of modern man… of nuclear nightmare and fashionable neurosis. I know… for, I am the Watcher.” “… and his barbarian mind would doubtless consider all this night a mad and eerie dream. But that, deep inside his soul… he knows better. As do I… for I am the Watcher!” Synopsis: The Watcher starts with a monologue about Conan and his journey into how he came to arrive in man’s modern world. Conan was on a spying mission, and rode on horseback to a trade city called Akbitana. In one of the taverns, he took the time to taste the wiles of a beautiful woman, Alhambra. He was careless and she slipped powder from her ring and into his drinking mug. He then went into unconsciousness, and she had a couple of minions roll him in a carpet, and while hidden walked through the streets and arrived to the Ziggurat which the men of the city shunned. Conan awoke to find himself bound. Then, Alhambra’s master appeared, the time travelling former king of a future Babylon, Shum-Ukin. The time traveler told Conan about the future realms, and then lead him to the inner sanctum of the citadel until they reached a room that had the Well at the Center of Time. He explained to Conan that each time he sent someone down the well, he drew up something very valuable from both past and future. He will send Conan and his servant, Alhambra. Conan broke free and became unbound, but was felled with a stone axe to the head which was administered by one of Shum-Ukin’s minions. Conan and Alhambra were both lowered and the fumes from the eerie waters below grew thicker as they descended. He saw many things in the mirror of his mind. He saw the sinking of Atlantis, cavemen and mammoths, Ancient Egypt, dinosaurs, and other things. The vapors made the ropes that bound him older and he broke free. He untied Alhambra and with her hanging on to him, he climbed upwards using the rope that was tied to the large bucket they were in. He helped her to the safe confines of outside the well, but before he can step outside the well, the rope he was climbing on broke and he plummeted deep into the Well at the Center of Time. Conan’s corporeal form emerged in modern day New York City. The time is 8:37 PM EST, and the date is Wednesday, July 13, 1977. He was in the middle of Manhattan, and New Yorkers were wary of his presence and avoided him. Dressed as a barbarian in loin fur and having a sword, some people mistook him for Arnold Schwarzenneger or Sylvester Stallone. Conan went to the almost deserted side streets to remain inconspicuous, until punk rockers emerged from one of the buildings and encountered him. Having been annoyed by the punk rockers, Conan bellowed out to what appeared to him as warlocks, to begone. And they ran scared away from him, and Conan continued his way. He came across a grocery and looked through the glass wall and saw the food, as hunger has set in. Just then an old lady smacked him with her bag saying that’s what he gets for showing his bare bejeesuz. An annoyed Conan picked up the old woman and tossed her into a garbage can, and she screamed for help. Two NYPD officers heard the commotion and went to the vicinity. The two cops approached Conan who stood out amongst New Yorkers in his barbarian garb. He drew his sword warning the cops to stay away. The commotion drew a crowd who were curious what was happening. Peter Parker along with Mary Jane noticed the commotion, but Peter told Mary Jane it wasn’t their business and that he was taking her home. The police fired warning shots that hit the wall of the building next to Conan. Thinking their guns and bullets were magic, Conan made a hasty escape and climbed the side of the building. Jumping from building to building utilizing the fire escape ladders, he finally jumped to the street where he was met by an incoming yellow taxi cab. Thinking it was some sort of monster, Conan slashed at the taxi’s hood. A female driver emerged from the taxi telling off Conan about how he is going to fix the hood he just damaged. Still speaking in his Cimmerian tongue, Conan is dumfounded that a woman emerged from riding inside a yellow beast. Curious, she pushed Conan to get inside the back seat of the cab. And the police officers arrived asking if she has seen the Barbarian they were after. She said no, and they went their way. She decided to drive with Conan and take him to her home for safety. It’s better than him pointing his sword in the street to New Yorkers or cops. Lightning struck a power plant just outside of NYC. At the lady’s home, Conan sensed the loneliness of this woman, citing she’s alone in this world with no man’s protection. He took her to his arms. But suddenly to room went dark as the electricity died. Conan looked outside the window and saw the whole city is encompassed in darkness with the exception of the cars’ headlights whom he referred to as “metal dragons.” In the darkness the lady taxi driver told Conan about her loneliness, and even though Conan couldn’t understand her, he felt her loneliness and told her his name was Conan and took her into his arms, and the woman told him her name, Danette. After being intimate and falling asleep afterwards, Conan was awoken in the middle of the night with loud crashes downstairs. And he looked outside the window and saw massive looting of stores in the street below. He jumped out the window to the fire-escape ladders and to the street below. Trying to stop the looting, Conan went into action. A black man pulled a knife and was about to cut him, but Conan grabbed his neck and crushed his hand, this dropping the knife, and threw the black man to the other looters. With his back turned, a latino-looking man grabbed Conan’s sword and proclaimed he has a sword, only to have his jaw introduced to Conan’s fist. The latino-looking man crumpled down as pieces of his teeth flew in the air. He then went after the other looters who were carrying various appliances and furniture and went to town with them, all sorts of men, black, white, Latino, Asian, etc. Until all the looters in the area started running away from the berserk and enraged Cimmerian. In a blind fury, Conan lifts a red Volkswagen Beetle and turns it over in the street. And at least his part of the street, the looters left in fear. But in the darkness, the city burned and looters looted throughout the night and into the daylight the next day. Later that night, Conan was still at Danette’s place, and the electricity is still out. She went to her books and showed him pages from a picture book of the sites of NYC. And the Guggenheim Museum got Conan’s attention. He was still speaking in Cimmerian but he was pointing out that this was the Citadel of Shamash Shum-ukin. She was thinking that was where Conan was from, and drove him to the Guggenheim Museum. Going inside, they found the security guard on the floor unconscious. Turning on her flashlight, she and Conan made their way inside the museum. There were gunmen inside and flashed their flashlight at them, and one of them immediately started shooting at Conan. A bullet hit Conan at his deltoid, and enraged, he attacked one of the gunmen. He took him out. Then one of the gunmen grabbed Danette but she kicked him and tried to run away. He shot her from behind. Conan became more enraged and grabbed the gunman that shot Danette and lifted him up and threw him from the Guggenheim Museum all the way down to the floor. He then grabbed his sword and threw it to another gunman and it killed him instantly. He attacked the two remaining gunmen and grabbed one of them with his feet and calves and snapped him over and the gunman fell to the floor below. Finally he grabbed an ancient relic and threw it to the last remaining gunman and hit him in the base of the neck and taking him down as well. But he tried to grab his gun to shoot Conan, and Conan grabbed his neck and snapped it. He went to see to Danette and she just had a flesh wound. The NYPD officers made their way inside the museum, and Conan left to avoid them as he didn’t want to be incarcerated. Conan headed for the roof of the building. And on the roof he raised his sword and a lightning hit him and he suddenly appeared as if he disintegrated. Danette tried to explain the whole thing to the police. And at that instant Conan re-emerged in his own timeline in the roof of the city Ziggurat. He found his mount and rod away to the desert and beyond carrying Danette’s hat as a reminder. Comments: This was an entertaining story about Conan being out of time, and how he would react to things and people he encountered on a future time line. Some of his actions comes across as barbaric, some out of fear, and some that would automatically enrage him. I believe there was a blackout in NYC in the 70’s that resulted in massive looting. It’s nice how the story referenced that and explained the cause of the blackout in the city. I hope there’s another Conan story that will appear in this series.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 7, 2016 13:12:18 GMT -5
Great review, sabongero!
Danette in that story is Roy thomas's then-friend and future wife. She would help him write many comics, including a good part of Arak, son of Thunder. It was fun to have her play a fictional role in this story!
As all good "What if..?" stories, this one departs from an actual adventure : in Savage sword of Conan #7, Conan and Alhambra do escape from the well at the center of time and the Cimmerian doesn't end up in our era.
This issue had a sequel, or rather the basis of another What if..? alternate timeline : in a later issue (which i hope you will review some day!) Conan stays stuck in the present and becomes a street gang leader, just as he would have done in Shadizar the Wicked.
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 7, 2016 14:19:14 GMT -5
Great review, sabongero! Danette in that story is Roy thomas's then-friend and future wife. She would help him write many comics, including a good part of Arak, son of Thunder. It was fun to have her play a fictional role in this story! As all good "What if..?" stories, this one departs from an actual adventure : in Savage sword of Conan #7, Conan and Alhambra do escape from the well at the center of time and the Cimmerian doesn't end up in our era. This issue had a sequel, or rather the basis of another What if..? alternate timeline : in a later issue (which i hope you will review some day!) Conan stays stuck in the present and becomes a street gang leader, just as he would have done in Shadizar the Wicked. Conan was In a third WI, He met Thor in another issue.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 7, 2016 15:11:01 GMT -5
Great review, sabongero! Danette in that story is Roy thomas's then-friend and future wife. She would help him write many comics, including a good part of Arak, son of Thunder. It was fun to have her play a fictional role in this story! As all good "What if..?" stories, this one departs from an actual adventure : in Savage sword of Conan #7, Conan and Alhambra do escape from the well at the center of time and the Cimmerian doesn't end up in our era. This issue had a sequel, or rather the basis of another What if..? alternate timeline : in a later issue (which i hope you will review some day!) Conan stays stuck in the present and becomes a street gang leader, just as he would have done in Shadizar the Wicked. Conan was In a third WI, He met Thor in another issue. Oh yeah, I loved that story! It had a real epic feel! Conan was also in an issue of the second volume of What if..?, in which he met Wolverine and caused the end of the world by messing with Dark Phoenix's death. (I kid you not!)
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Post by realjla on Apr 7, 2016 17:30:46 GMT -5
Conan's 'What If' appearances (the two mentioned here, and the 'Wolverine replaces Conan in Cimmeria' issue in the second series) are the only Conan stories I've ever read. Other than Roy Thomas overdoing the Mary Sue stuff ('Dann Sue'?), #13 is a great read, and the tie-in with 1977 blackout lends 'period charm'.;-)
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 8, 2016 4:44:25 GMT -5
I'm guessing that those Conan issues will never see a reprint because of ownership conflicts.
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Post by sabongero on Jun 6, 2016 15:58:05 GMT -5
Great review, sabongero! Danette in that story is Roy thomas's then-friend and future wife. She would help him write many comics, including a good part of Arak, son of Thunder. It was fun to have her play a fictional role in this story! As all good "What if..?" stories, this one departs from an actual adventure : in Savage sword of Conan #7, Conan and Alhambra do escape from the well at the center of time and the Cimmerian doesn't end up in our era. This issue had a sequel, or rather the basis of another What if..? alternate timeline : in a later issue (which i hope you will review some day!) Conan stays stuck in the present and becomes a street gang leader, just as he would have done in Shadizar the Wicked. Thanks Roquefort. I really appreciate it. I'm glad you and the others are enjoying the What If thread.
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Post by sabongero on Jun 6, 2016 15:58:36 GMT -5
Sorry guys, I am skipping What If #14, as I cannot find that issue in my box.
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