|
Post by Batflunkie on Sept 26, 2020 13:23:34 GMT -5
Personally I wonder can you think things like the Beatles, Scarface, Citizen Kane (and everything Cher did without Sonny) as bleh and still recognize the talent. I’d rather listen to the Monkees over the Beatles. Dick Tracey over Scarface and I Got You Babe over anything she’s done solo. I like "If I Could Turn Back Time" and "Believe", but yeah they are kind of souless pop hits
|
|
|
Post by Prince Hal on Sept 26, 2020 13:28:28 GMT -5
Personally I wonder can you think things like the Beatles, Scarface, Citizen Kane (and everything Cher did without Sonny) as bleh and still recognize the talent. I’d rather listen to the Monkees over the Beatles. Dick Tracey over Scarface and I Got You Babe over anything she’s done solo. Oh, I think so, as personal tastes vary -- I agree 100 percent on "I Got You, Babe," for instance, Adam -- and, also key, the time and circumstances when we encounter a creative work also play an important part in our emotional and intellectual attraction to it. We have to be ready or be made ready for it. (That's where good teachers often come in.) I tried to watch "Casablanca" when I was about 14 or so, for example, and it didn't take me in. Just a couple of years later, I was captured by it, and over the many years since have fallen further under its spell. A lot has to do with what we bring to a work of art, a song, a movie, a book. I think we owe it to ourselves to be informed about this kind of thing. I don't fancy a great deal of what used to be called modern art, but I recognize its artistry and the place it has in our culture. I taught a great deal of literature for many years as a teacher. I recognize "Death of a Salesman" as a work of art and respect what Miller accomplished in it, and I think I can tell you what's great about it, but it never sings to me the way Shakespeare does. I think it helps when a work of art provides us what I always think of as a way in; most often it's through a character we an identify ourselves with, and in most great works of art, that character changes as we grow older and our lives change. It's why I loved Superboy comics back in the Silver Age when I was 8, 9, 10 years old; both Clark and Superboy were characters I could sympathize with, empathize with, and aspire to become, depending on the story. Thus, I have an affection for them even now when I look back at them. I think, it's why, over the many years I taught a Shakespeare elective to high school kids (they'd come to it having read both "R and J" and "Macbeth" in their freshman and sophomore years), the play they named year after year as the one I should never replace or rotate out of the syllabus was "Othello." It has so many ways in for teenagers -- jealousy, insecurity, gossip, violence, anger, shortsightedness, pride, forbidden love, passion, intensity, revenge, fantasizing, take your pick -- that they have little trouble falling under its spell. The language never was an obstacle as it was in other plays; they were sucked in by each of the main characters, even -- perhaps especially-- Iago; and were riveted by the pitiable descent of Othello into near madness at the hands of the increasingly diabolical Iago. You've never heard anything till you've heard 60 "I've-seen-it-all" high school kids as one as they watch Othello smother Desdemona 20 feet from them on stage. And yes, there were tears, too. Now Superboy 125 isn't Shakespeare, but both tap into what make us human. That's what art does. It reassures us, bedevils us, challenges us, and continues to raise the bar for all of us. How the hell did I get there from Sonny and Cher?! Apologies. I tend to be ADD at times.
|
|
|
Post by Prince Hal on Sept 26, 2020 13:31:26 GMT -5
(...) PS: For them "Heat" is "Citizen Kane." Yeah, I've seen/heard people singing the praises of Heat on a number of occasions, and don't quite understand it. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very good film, but there's nothing about it that strikes me as particularly extraordinary - in the sense that it can be put up there with Citizen Kane (*not* overrated, by the way) or, say, the first two Godfathers. And I'm not sure it's a generational thing, either. I was in my mid-20s when it was released, so it would definitely fall under movies significant to "my" generation but, like I said, it didn't rock my world in that way.
Yeah, for me it's Michael Mann trying too hard to turn a bevy of unlikable characters and over-the-top actors into the cast of a grand opera. Bathetic when he wanted it to be pathetic. I hope there's no director's cut; it would probably be a day and a half long.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Sept 26, 2020 14:09:36 GMT -5
PS: For them "Heat" is "Citizen Kane." Just to get this straight, is that the 1995 "Heat" with de Niro and Pacino?
|
|
|
Post by Prince Hal on Sept 26, 2020 14:22:24 GMT -5
PS: For them "Heat" is "Citizen Kane." Just to get this straight, is that the 1995 "Heat" with de Niro and Pacino? Yup.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Sept 26, 2020 16:17:54 GMT -5
Just to get this straight, is that the 1995 "Heat" with de Niro and Pacino? Yup. Interesting that they'd pick out that one - I remember being a little disappointed with it at the time, mainly because my expectations were so sky high with Pacino and De Niro working together for the first time in so many years. And I still feel the same way about it even in hindsight.
Michael Mann had a nice, even striking at times, visual style but I've never thought of him as a great director in other respects. His films feel pretty conventional to me, apart from that surface visual appeal - which I don't mean to downplay, because it's obviously very important to the film medium and he deserves to be recognised as an innovator on that level. But I think he was a bit of a mismatch with Deniro and Pacino, who both need someone with a different kind of skill-set to bring out their best.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Sept 26, 2020 18:33:41 GMT -5
(...) PS: For them "Heat" is "Citizen Kane." Yeah, I've seen/heard people singing the praises of Heat on a number of occasions, and don't quite understand it. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very good film, but there's nothing about it that strikes me as particularly extraordinary - in the sense that it can be put up there with Citizen Kane (*not* overrated, by the way) or, say, the first two Godfathers. And I'm not sure it's a generational thing, either. I was in my mid-20s when it was released, so it would definitely fall under movies significant to "my" generation but, like I said, it didn't rock my world in that way.
Depends on what you want in your films. It's a very good character study and Michael Mann is both a great visual stylist, adept at using music to accentuate a mood, and is terrific at establishing a mood and a theme in his work. Heat is kind of the pinnacle of his crime films, in those regards. I think it is a classic crime film; but not quite in the same arena as many other classics. Citizen Kane, from a story standpoint, loses me at different points, with its episodic structure. Some episodes are just so much better than others. They have been picked apart so much I think that a lot of the praise is more about specific moments and scenes in the films than its entirety. It certainly seems to be the way people remember it. From the technical side, yes, very innovative; but, I'd rather watch a Billy Wilder film. Fight Club left me bored and underwhelmed, not to mentioned amused by how unbelievable the whole thing is. Palahniuk's writing isn't my cup of tea, either. I find that Nick Hornby reflects more my idea of a modern male's story; or, at least one with which I more closely identify. Not so much the movie adaptations, though I like About a Boy. High Fidelity in bursts, but not the whole of it.
|
|
|
Post by Duragizer on Sept 27, 2020 4:10:01 GMT -5
Two-colour Technicolor is best Technicolor.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,878
|
Post by shaxper on Sept 27, 2020 5:39:29 GMT -5
Both very good, but also both severely overrated. Citizen Kane is only considered "overrated" these days for the same reason Moore and Gibbons' Watchmen is: contemporary audiences are so accustomed to the revolutions in storytelling techniques each pioneered that they re blind to their significance. Welles' experiment in non-linear storytelling and his refusal to coddle the movie audience by laying on exposition with the proverbial towel was enormously influential, not only on his fellow directors and screenwriters but on the world of comic books as well. Steranko, in his seminal History of Comics, tells of comics pros--including Jack Kirby and Will Eisner--who went to see Kane ten times or more n order to study and absorb Welles' innovations. If you've only seen it on TV or home video, I can understand how its impact could be muted. I was fortunate enough not only to see it on the big screen, but to participate in a shot-by-shot analysis of the film conducted by critic and author Richard Jameson. Citizen Kane, again like Watchman, is proof of my assertion that it's not the story you tell that matters but how you tell it. Cei-U! The defense rests!
I need to consider all of this quite carefully. Thanks for the knowledge. I honestly always thought it was Top 100 material that made it to the top of every film expert's list solely because it was every filmmaker's fantasy to produce a film the way Wells produced Kane. It's nice to be wrong. I'll do some reading and watch it again.
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Sept 27, 2020 11:39:47 GMT -5
There is little to nothing I can say better or to add on what has already been said here. I will just stick to co-signing the idea that people who are intellectually honest about their approach to art can recognize quality separately from preference.
One of my pet peeves is "I don't like it, therefore it sucks!" instead of "I don't like it, but I can tell those folks are skilled." There are plenty of things that take monumental skill that just don't do it for me. See, most jazz I've heard post the big bang stuff. It's not my thing, but I'm not stupid enough to think it's because it's not any good.
|
|
|
Post by Prince Hal on Sept 27, 2020 11:56:50 GMT -5
There is little to nothing I can say better or to add on what has already been said here. I will just stick to co-signing the idea that people who are intellectually honest about their approach to art can recognize quality separately from preference. One of my pet peeves is "I don't like it, therefore it sucks!" instead of "I don't like it, but I can tell those folks are skilled." There are plenty of things that take monumental skill that just don't do it for me. See, most jazz I've heard post the big bang stuff. It's not my thing, but I'm not stupid enough to think it's because it's not any good. Ditto. It's how I feel about Mondrian. (Though I haven't heard much music at all from before the big bang.)
|
|
|
Post by Batflunkie on Sept 27, 2020 12:01:27 GMT -5
One of my pet peeves is "I don't like it, therefore it sucks!" instead of "I don't like it, but I can tell those folks are skilled." There are plenty of things that take monumental skill that just don't do it for me. See, most jazz I've heard post the big bang stuff. It's not my thing, but I'm not stupid enough to think it's because it's not any good. Being open minded in a world of belligerent social media is a hard thing to do. Growing up in New Orleans kind of gives you a taste for Jazz and Blues and I'll admit that I haven't listened to much in that area, but I do love me some R&B
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Sept 27, 2020 12:24:04 GMT -5
There is little to nothing I can say better or to add on what has already been said here. I will just stick to co-signing the idea that people who are intellectually honest about their approach to art can recognize quality separately from preference. One of my pet peeves is "I don't like it, therefore it sucks!" instead of "I don't like it, but I can tell those folks are skilled." There are plenty of things that take monumental skill that just don't do it for me. See, most jazz I've heard post the big bang stuff. It's not my thing, but I'm not stupid enough to think it's because it's not any good. Ditto. It's how I feel about Mondrian. (Though I haven't heard much music at all from before the big bang.) It's amazing the difference in meaning a single mistyped letter can make.
|
|
|
Post by EdoBosnar on Sept 27, 2020 13:00:20 GMT -5
It's amazing the difference in meaning a single mistyped letter can make. Tell me about tit. ...
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Sept 27, 2020 13:52:04 GMT -5
Ditto. It's how I feel about Mondrian. (Though I haven't heard much music at all from before the big bang.) It's amazing the difference in meaning a single mistyped letter can make. Well, I'd like to think the universe started with the big band!
|
|