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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 19, 2018 9:59:50 GMT -5
...but it's positively Eisnerian compared to the fetid swill that is X-Factor. I'm not a fan of the X-Men and related comics, but I was always under the impression that the initial '80s run of X-Factor was generally well looked upon by fans of the Marvel mutants. That was the series that brought the original X-Men line up back together, right? What didn't you like about it and would you say your opinion is shared by a lot of other fans? I'm not Kurt but I've known him a long time. I suspect it's the same reason I hate X-Factor...Jean Gray coming back from the dead.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,069
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Post by Confessor on Mar 19, 2018 10:07:08 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the X-Men and related comics, but I was always under the impression that the initial '80s run of X-Factor was generally well looked upon by fans of the Marvel mutants. That was the series that brought the original X-Men line up back together, right? What didn't you like about it and would you say your opinion is shared by a lot of other fans? I'm not Kurt but I've known him a long time. I suspect it's the same reason I hate X-Factor...Jean Gray coming back from the dead. Ah, OK...I knew that was controversial among fans. Was Jean Gray resurrected specifically for the X-Factor series or did it happen sometime before? Also, what precisely did you find so unpalatable about bringing her back? Was it that her death was particularly poignant or heroic, or was it more that this was an era where comics fans still believed that "dead means dead" and her returning therefore felt ridiculous or even like a betrayal?
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 19, 2018 10:13:54 GMT -5
...but it's positively Eisnerian compared to the fetid swill that is X-Factor. I'm not a fan of the X-Men and related comics, but I was always under the impression that the initial '80s run of X-Factor was generally well looked upon by fans of the Marvel mutants. That was the series that brought the original X-Men line up back together, right? What didn't you like about it and would you say your opinion is shared by a lot of other fans? Oh, lordy, where do I even begin? Here's ten reasons: 1. The reunion of the original X-Men, who have always bored the crap out of me. 2. The resurrection of Jean Grey, negating the most emotionally powerful event in Marvel history (and yes, this was done specifically to include her in the new/old team). After this, no character death was ever permanent again. 3. The complete destruction of Cyclops as an admirable, sympathetic character. 4. The elimination of the blue, furry Beast, returning him to the dull Lee/Kirby version. 5. The slaughter of the interesting Defenders (Valkyrie, Gargoyle, et al) to free up the monumentally uninteresting Iceman and Angel. 6. The conversion of Angel to Archangel, a desperate attempt to make a boring character not boring. It didn't. 7. The whole "mutant hunters" charade the team used as cover. It made absolutely no sense, either in context or as a premise. 8. Awful scripting by Bob Layton. 9. Worse art by Jackson Guice. 10. Its obvious genesis as a way to expand the X-Men franchise and cynically exploit the lemming-like devotion of X-Fans without any concern for quality. The later arrival of Louise Simonson as writer and hubby Walt on art at least eliminated the problems caused by #8-9 but nothing could fix the conceptual rot at the heart of the book. X-Factor was the main reason I stopped buying/following Marvel Comics. I know a lot of folks share my opinion of the title/concept but obviously not enough to keep it from having a long and (presumably) profitable run. Cei-U! I summon the barf bag!
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Post by MDG on Mar 19, 2018 10:34:22 GMT -5
I'll just say this: X-Factor was the first book where I said, "I'll be like my friends and pick up the first six issues 'to see where this is going.'"
I quit after issue 2.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 19, 2018 11:26:06 GMT -5
I'm not Kurt but I've known him a long time. I suspect it's the same reason I hate X-Factor...Jean Gray coming back from the dead. Ah, OK...I knew that was controversial among fans. Was Jean Gray resurrected specifically for the X-Factor series or did it happen sometime before? Also, what precisely did you find so unpalatable about bringing her back? Was it that her death was particularly poignant or heroic, or was it more that this was an era where comics fans still believed that "dead means dead" and her returning therefore felt ridiculous or even like a betrayal? As I recall she returned specifically for X-Factor...but it's been a long time. For me it was a bit of Column A and a bit of Column B. Her death was heroic and self-sacrificing. Bringing her back diminished that. And it was still at a time when dead meant dead...at least for the most part (villains were always subject to return). At this point, death is meaningless, so who cares. This was also at a point in my reading where I still cared about continuity. At this point it's all pretty meaningless and I just want a decent story.
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 19, 2018 12:06:34 GMT -5
I read Ka-zar the Savage #10-12. I had picked Ka-zar the Savage #10 out of a long box as a totally random issue to read, and enjoyed it enough to find #11-12 online so I could get the end of the story. It had more humor than I'd have expected. I don't even know what possessed me to buy that issue in the first place since I was never a Ka-zar collector at all and the cover isn't particularly captivating. Still, it must have been a serendipitous purchase, since I liked it.
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 19, 2018 12:07:31 GMT -5
I have a question. Is old original New Mutants really worth reading since I missed out on that when I was a kid back in the 1980s? It's nothing special until Sienkiewicz comes on as penciler but it's positively Eisnerian compared to the fetid swill that is X-Factor. Cei-U! I summon the morass of mutant mediocrity! Personally, I think it becomes unreadable once Sienkiewicz takes over, but to each his (or her) own.
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 19, 2018 12:13:03 GMT -5
As far as X-Factor, yes bringing Jean back from the dead sucks in many ways, and yes it started the ridiculous "she's dead again, she's alive again" roller-coaster for Jean (not to mention a lot of characters) but in a vacuum, I thought the first maybe 5 issues of X-Factor were enjoyable (aside from the ridiculous premise that they are disguising themselves as "mutie" hunters and thus are probably fanning the flames of anti-mutant sentiment) but I also felt the title went downhill from there, and fairly quickly. A combination I suppose of changes in the writer and artists. Ohn and Cei-U! is totally right about it being the destruction of Cyclops as a likable character. I used to like the guy and he was basically a scumbag here, and that starting right from issue #1.
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 19, 2018 12:17:09 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the X-Men and related comics, but I was always under the impression that the initial '80s run of X-Factor was generally well looked upon by fans of the Marvel mutants. That was the series that brought the original X-Men line up back together, right? What didn't you like about it and would you say your opinion is shared by a lot of other fans? Oh, lordy, where do I even begin? Here's ten reasons: 1. The reunion of the original X-Men, who have always bored the crap out of me. 2. The resurrection of Jean Grey, negating the most emotionally powerful event in Marvel history (and yes, this was done specifically to include her in the new/old team). After this, no character death was ever permanent again. 3. The complete destruction of Cyclops as an admirable, sympathetic character. 4. The elimination of the blue, furry Beast, returning him to the dull Lee/Kirby version. 5. The slaughter of the interesting Defenders (Valkyrie, Gargoyle, et al) to free up the monumentally uninteresting Iceman and Angel. 6. The conversion of Angel to Archangel, a desperate attempt to make a boring character not boring. It didn't. 7. The whole "mutant hunters" charade the team used as cover. It made absolutely no sense, either in context or as a premise. 8. Awful scripting by Bob Layton. 9. Worse art by Jackson Guice. 10. Its obvious genesis as a way to expand the X-Men franchise and cynically exploit the lemming-like devotion of X-Fans without any concern for quality. The later arrival of Louise Simonson as writer and hubby Walt on art at least eliminated the problems caused by #8-9 but nothing could fix the conceptual rot at the heart of the book. X-Factor was the main reason I stopped buying/following Marvel Comics. I know a lot of folks share my opinion of the title/concept but obviously not enough to keep it from having a long and (presumably) profitable run. Cei-U! I summon the barf bag! While I agree with most of what you say, I vastly preferred the Layton and Guice to Simonson and Guice's predecessors. Otherwise, you're spot on.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Mar 19, 2018 12:53:41 GMT -5
I read Ka-zar the Savage #10-12. I had picked Ka-zar the Savage #10 out of a long box as a totally random issue to read, and enjoyed it enough to find #11-12 online so I could get the end of the story. It had more humor than I'd have expected. I don't even know what possessed me to buy that issue in the first place since I was never a Ka-zar collector at all and the cover isn't particularly captivating. Still, it must have been a serendipitous purchase, since I liked it. I loved the early '80s Ka-zar series - I liked that Bruce Jones infused a lot of humor into his dialogue. The first 15 or so issues, which are all part of an extended story arc that takes place in Pangea, are the very best - after that, the stories lose steam a bit. Also, the art in that initial run is by Brent Anderson.
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Post by Hoosier X on Mar 19, 2018 13:18:34 GMT -5
I read Ka-zar the Savage #10-12. I had picked Ka-zar the Savage #10 out of a long box as a totally random issue to read, and enjoyed it enough to find #11-12 online so I could get the end of the story. It had more humor than I'd have expected. I don't even know what possessed me to buy that issue in the first place since I was never a Ka-zar collector at all and the cover isn't particularly captivating. Still, it must have been a serendipitous purchase, since I liked it. I remember that series very fondly. I bought every issue brand new right off the spinner racks. I don't even remember why I started picking it up because I had never been much of a Ka-Zar fan before. The art is great. Shanna the She-Devil has long been a favorite of mine, and I think I knew who she was (from back issues of Daredevil probably) before Ka-Zar #1 came out. And a compelling storyline right from the first. And also, Zabu is pretty awesome! There should be a Lockjaw/Zabu team-up mini-series.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Mar 19, 2018 13:27:13 GMT -5
I wish that entirety of Ka-zar the Savage would get collected in a nice Epic volume; I was really annoyed with that trade published last year that only collects the first five issues.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Mar 19, 2018 13:28:29 GMT -5
Oh yeah, on X-factor, even though I followed the series for a while the Simonsons were the creative team, I basically agree that it really never should have happened, primarily for reasons 2 & 3 in Cei-U's list: it pretty much obliterated the emotional punch of the excellent Dark Phoenix saga, and ruined Cyclops, who I still consider the best X-man. On New Mutants, I agree with dbutler: it's an all right series until Sienkiewicz took over as artist. I found the complete shift in tone very off-putting, and, additionally, I thought there was no need to make Doug Ramsey/Cypher an actual member of the team (he was better as a supporting character) and I could. not. stand. Warlock. I bailed after 2 or 3 issues of that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 13:59:51 GMT -5
X-Factor is really a bad book from the get-go and I was very disappointed in this ... totally disappointed.
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 19, 2018 14:28:24 GMT -5
It's nothing special until Sienkiewicz comes on as penciler but it's positively Eisnerian compared to the fetid swill that is X-Factor. Cei-U! I summon the morass of mutant mediocrity! Personally, I think it becomes unreadable once Sienkiewicz takes over, but to each his (or her) own. The only reason I like his run is because of the art. It has nothing to do with the plotting or scripting, which Claremont seemed to be aiming squarely at 13-year-old girls. Nothing wrong with that, y'understand, but really not my cuppa joe. Cei-U! I summon the qualification!
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