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Post by profh0011 on Jun 13, 2021 21:46:08 GMT -5
There was a lot of conflict going on behind-the-scenes that is not really reflected in the published comics.
Legend has it, Jack Kirby began planning his "NEW GODS" saga right around this time. That "first Ragnarok" could have been the REAL THING, leading to the destruction of Asgard, and the birth of a whole new cycle of gods. Except, it didn't, so the story has the most abrupt, ridiculous ending.
I've seen fans arguing as to WHO was really responsible for the decision to reveal that Don Blake never really existed.
The origin of Galactus was meant to go on for several more issues than it did, but CONSTANT editorial interference of a scale never yet witnessed before erupted, causing major plot points to be rejected and whole heaps of pages to be published and scripted out of sequence.
When I read the Pluto 2-parter, I COULD NOT get it out of my head that it felt like Darkseid and his Para-Demons, employing a Boom Tube to travel to and fro, and that the story had been planned for NEW GODS but altered to fit into THOR instead.
The 2-part "Him" story, however, was even more blatent. The "Him" story in FANTASTIC FOUR was planned to be a 4-parter, before Kirby's boss TOTALLY corrupted and changed the whole meaning of part 1 in the dialogue. Kirby was so infurated by his story being ruined in such a cavalier fashion, he brought it to an abrupt ending after only 2 installments, then, spent the next 4 issues of FF writing a story in which Ben Grimm TRIES TO MURDER HIS BOSS. Think about that one.
The "Him" story in THOR was clearly a heavily-re-written version of parts 3 & 4, with Thor & Sif subbing for Ben & Alicia. But it would have made way more sense with Ben & Alicia, since she was a helpless female to be rescued, and Sif could never be described that way, while Ben had a long track record of GOING BERZERK... which, Thor DID NOT. "Warrior madness"? What B*** S***.
Stuff like this is why, for 3 years, Kirby and his lawyer fought to get a written CONTRACT that would guarantee his being paid and credited for his writing, but the new owners, Perfect Film, refused to even consider such a thing. When Kirby's old friend Carmine Infantino was promoted to PUBLISHER at DC, he offered Kirby the contract he wanted, and Kirby jumped ship without any warning.
I know what it's like to leave a job without warning the boss. I'VE DONE IT.
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Post by earl on Jun 14, 2021 3:46:13 GMT -5
Probably a bit more modern than classic, I finished up Roy Thomas' Dark Horse Conan series 'Road of Kings' and read the first six issues of Brian Wood's much maligned Conan series. I thought the Road of Kings was really good and even though they changed artists, both had a similar style that held it together ok even if not exactly ideal artwork stylistically for Conan.
Wood's run literally picks up right where Thomas had left the ongoing narrative and pretty much goes a totally different more impressionistic Conan. I can totally see why many hated it as it is strikingly different than any Conan depiction I have seen in the comics. That said, the first arc by Cloonan in how Conan came to be with Beliet was not necessarily bad if taken on it's own terms. Second arc when they go back to his previous captures allows himself to be captured (not likely) and then sulks in the cell and on the hangman's stand seem wrong. The second artist while having some panels and depictions of the town are amazing uses some odd facial depictions. It's all gory as you get too.
I really liked Northlanders and this has similar atmosphere of The Massive had a times, but so far I have to concur at least 6 issues in this Conan run does not really work. That said, Belit is definitely much more of a horrific character in this adaption and some of those elements I think do think were interesting. We will see how the rest goes...
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 14, 2021 10:09:30 GMT -5
Some great inking from George Klein in some of those Thor issues. Colletta was doing what Colletta did, maybe even less so on some issues.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 14, 2021 12:17:24 GMT -5
I finally got around to reading the collection of Voyage to the Deep that I supported on Kickstarter some time back. The physical book itself is great. Well produced. Nice foreword and historical information. Great package. But that is a HARD read. I bought it mostly to support Sam Glanzman and because of his artwork. And the art is mostly fine, though it's among the weakest work by Glanzman that I've read. But the stories...holy crap...they are just awful. It's not clear at all who wrote the book. But this is close to as bad as comics got story-wise. The science in this book about an atomic sub appears to have been concocted by a not very bright 4th grader. It honestly makes me long for magic radiation and magic transistors and magic magnetism it's so bad. And, while I don't expect much characterization from Dell adventure books, the characters here have as much depth as a sheet of low-cost one-ply toilet paper. The only thing the book really had going for it were the painted covers by John McDermott. I feel really sorry for any kids that spent their hard-earned 12 cents based on those covers. It's a good thing the book looks good on the shelf, because it will never leave it again.
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Post by profh0011 on Jun 14, 2021 13:08:58 GMT -5
Some great inking from George Klein in some of those Thor issues. Colletta was doing what Colletta did, maybe even less so on some issues. Legend has it Vince Colletta had a small army of uncredited assistants working for him. As a result, we'll probably never really know, who did what... and for that matter, who did the "good" pages, and who did the "really bad" ones. Be ironic if the assistants did better work than the guy who hired them (which, apparently, is exactly what happened on certain issues of JIMMY OLSEN).
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Post by tonebone on Jun 14, 2021 14:13:41 GMT -5
My local Ollie's Outlet just got some new graphic novels in... including Volume Four of the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agent Archives, for under $10.
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Post by dbutler69 on Jun 14, 2021 15:26:35 GMT -5
I read Iron Man #107. This concludes the 6-part Midas story. It was a good story arc overall, though the conclusion felt somewhat lackluster to me.
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Post by badwolf on Jun 14, 2021 16:53:48 GMT -5
I like how Stern launches WCA with some characters who have been sidelined or are otherwise misfits. He does a good job revitalizing Tigra who Shooter treated too much like a plot device. There's a short arc with Jessica Drew that continues from the end of the Spider-Woman series. I've only read the first half of that series, but my understanding is that she sort of dies at the end. There must have been a ton of outraged letters. The Avengers letter page announced the story was upcoming several months in advance and noted they got letters asking about Spider-Woman. In the final issue of Spider-Woman's mag, she and her mentor the wizard Magnus travelled to the astral plane to battle her recurring nemesis Morgan le Fey. They defeated her, but upon returning they found Jessica's body dead, the victim of a last ditch strike by le Fey. Accepting her fate, Jessica asks Magnus to erase the memory of her from everyone she's ever met (!)
This left the dangling plot thread that was recounted in the Avengers issue. (Her gathered friends and allies finding her body.)
I had always figured the ending to her series was the result of a sudden cancellation notice that required Ann Nocenti to wrap things up in a hurry, but I've found out recently that that was not the case at all. It was just odd.
Needless to say I was happy to see someone pick up on it, and thrilled that Jessica was revived in the end.
I really liked the Absolute Vision storyline as well... especially the issue where he dreams about the other versions of himself, which was surreal and creepy!
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Post by franklin on Jun 15, 2021 8:48:21 GMT -5
Some great inking from George Klein in some of those Thor issues. Colletta was doing what Colletta did, maybe even less so on some issues. Legend has it Vince Colletta had a small army of uncredited assistants working for him. As a result, we'll probably never really know, who did what... and for that matter, who did the "good" pages, and who did the "really bad" ones. Be ironic if the assistants did better work than the guy who hired them (which, apparently, is exactly what happened on certain issues of JIMMY OLSEN). I rarely contribute to the many "Vinnie" debates online but this time I'll speak from first-hand knowledge that my father never used assistants on any Kirby pencils. Well, slight correction as my sister Rosie was responsible for a few of those now famous "checkerboard buildings" in the THOR stories. I wrote a soon-to be-published book about the old boy that was originally more than seven-hundred pages. The publisher (and others) convinced me to remove the many hundreds of fanboy comments which whittled that number down to 300. I KNEW that I had read your name before so I dug up this old thread. Seems that you've been beating this particular dead horse for quite a few years!
profh0011: You guys have obviously never really looked at the first few issues of MISTER MIRACLE. I have. Vince Colletta is credited... and I'm convinced he didn't touch a single page of them.
deejayway: I'm sorry but I have seen the first Mr. Miracles and they are obviously inked by Colletta, as credited.
czeskleba: I'm going to say you (profh0011) are wrong about this unless you can cite any sort of corroborating evidence. I took a fresh look at those books and Colletta's work is obviously all over them.
richard63: I agree. To my eye, here's nothing in those issues that suggests anything other than typical Colletta inking.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 15, 2021 9:07:10 GMT -5
franklin, I was saying some of those issues had better inking from your father that others. Not that he did less inking himself. Wanted to make that clear.
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Post by franklin on Jun 15, 2021 14:00:36 GMT -5
franklin, I was saying some of those issues had better inking from your father that others. Not that he did less inking himself. Wanted to make that clear. 10-4 and I agree that some of Vinnie's stuff was "workmanlike" at best. I asked Arthur Guttowitz, who was the comptroller at DC, why he thought that my dad was in such high demand. His answer was simply "Because he was fast and he was accurate." That much cannot be denied. My post was for Prof who has been pushing the same theory for more than ten years. Since I watched Vinnie ink those stories and had to erase the pencils afterwards, my hope is that he'll take that as a good enough reason to stop embarrassing himself with unfounded innuendo.
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
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Post by Crimebuster on Jun 15, 2021 16:07:51 GMT -5
The only question I have with Vince Colletta is how closely he worked with Matt Baker on his Charlton romance comics. My understanding is they worked together, and you can really see an obvious Baker influence on the way the men's faces in particular are drawn on some of Colletta's covers, but how much was done by who is a matter of debate in the romance community. I know some real top romance experts though who consider Colletta the best romance artist ever either way though!
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,392
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Post by shaxper on Jun 16, 2021 11:46:36 GMT -5
My local Ollie's Outlet just got some new graphic novels in... including Volume Four of the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agent Archives A strong contender for the review thread I enjoyed writing most. Lots of ups, and lots more downs, but it sure was something. my review thread, if you are ever inclined to follow along and share your thoughts. And under $10 is a tremendous deal.
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Post by tonebone on Jun 16, 2021 12:26:30 GMT -5
The only question I have with Vince Colletta is how closely he worked with Matt Baker on his Charlton romance comics. My understanding is they worked together, and you can really see an obvious Baker influence on the way the men's faces in particular are drawn on some of Colletta's covers, but how much was done by who is a matter of debate in the romance community. I know some real top romance experts though who consider Colletta the best romance artist ever either way though! I have always been annoyed the animosity towards Colletta's work. His romance work is absolutely stunning and among the best comics artwork ever. I remember being enthralled by the linework in the THOR treasury edition with his inks over Kirby. I understand the reference to some of his work as "workman-like", as Franklin said, but without his fast, accurate work, countless issues would have been shipped late, been cancelled, etc. It's one thing to ink a comic, it's another thing to ink it in a way that enhances the storytelling and optimizes the reproducibility of the pages. That's the accuracy part of the equation.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 16, 2021 13:18:42 GMT -5
As far as Colletta, there are two avenues of criticism. The first is whether someone likes his work. This is purely aesthetic and subjective. He had a particular style using thin pen lines for much of his inking, as well as bolder brushwork. I find it wrong to say he wasn't talented. You just either like the way his inking looked or not. The second is the shortcuts he took in his inking. There is no question that he erased figures and backgrounds and altered other parts to make things simpler. This was to increase the speed in which he inked. He was given a big workload and delivered on time. The Editors obviously saw his short cuts and approved since it secured their deadlines. There were artists who did not appreciate these and asked that he not ink their pencils. So I think it is fair to criticize him for this, while also acknowledging that it was not something he did secretly or without the approval of his bosses. It is unfair to pass any personal judgement on him. While we can judge the work itself. In hindsight, many of us lament the alterations, we want to see those Kirby Thor pages as Kirby drew them. But we have to accept the disposal nature of the art at that time.
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