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Post by Calidore on Apr 27, 2023 14:18:33 GMT -5
A lot of older comedy doesn't age well, but Segar's Popeye is still great fun. The first few years of Li'l Abner are gold, too.
Has anyone here read pre-Popeye Thimble Theatre, and how is it?
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Post by tonebone on Apr 28, 2023 8:08:19 GMT -5
A lot of older comedy doesn't age well, but Segar's Popeye is still great fun. The first few years of Li'l Abner are gold, too. Has anyone here read pre-Popeye Thimble Theatre, and how is it? My first volume begins with the arc that introduces Popeye... so there are several weeks of pre-sailor story... It is good, but becomes truly great as soon as Popeye appears. He is such a singular character, with such a wonderful twisted, nuanced personality, and he effortlessly steals the show. It's interesting that the "star" of the strip is Castor Oyl, until Popeye shows up, and then he sort of morphs into a rival of sorts. I have a feeling that Popeye sort of became one of those characters that seem to "write themselves", for Segar.
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Post by spoon on Apr 29, 2023 15:11:14 GMT -5
I read New Mutants #67-73, the Wolverine/X-books short story the Marvel Age Annual #4, New Mutants Annual #2-4, X-Terminators #1-4, X-Factor #35-39, Uncanny X-Men #239-243, Power Pack #40 and 44 and the portion of Avengers #299 with the New Mutants.
New Mutants #67-70 is the Spyder/Gosamyr story arc, where the New Mutants travel to space to rescue Lila Cheney from an alien who claims to own her. It's a lot to go in-depth on, so I'll just give some general thoughts. This arc is a continuing improvement of Louise Simonson run. Initially the Bird Brain/Fall of the Mutants period (#55-61) was underwhelming. There’s the Fall of the Mutants aftermath transitional period (#62-66) in which the quality takes a step, particularly in the writing.
Now, the Spyder/Gosamyr arc improves further in both writing and art. Simonson does better at differentiating the kids on the team rather than making them all similar petty brats. There are actually different character dynamics between different team members. In the FOTM arc, I felt Simonson tried to create a connection between Doug and Rahne at the eleventh hour to demonstrate the impact of Doug’s death rather than looking back at established connections. But in the space arc, Simonson uses some plot elements with Sam and Rahne that I feel like actually drew upon dormant, established hints about the characters. The world-building and guest characters are also better than in FOTM; Gosamyr is more interesting than Bird Brain. The recent change in Mirage’s powers also helps with action and plotting.
On the art side, Bret Blevins inks himself for two issues, and it’s much better than when Austin was inking him. Al Williamson takes over the inks, and also does a solid job.
The space arc is important set-up for Inferno because Illyana must do some heavy duty teleporting, which finally breaks down the barrier between Limbo and Earth. Gosamyr is also along for the ride.
Because I’m binge-reading New Mutants, my plan for Inferno was originally just to read New Mutants, crossovers where the kids appear, and the X-Terminators mini (because it eventually links up with the New Mutants part of the story and some of the X-Terminator kids end up joining the New Mutants). But I’ve also been wanting to re-read the X-Men/X-Factor portion of Inferno, so I decided I might as well do it now. I’ve also never read it all together, so I thought maybe those titles would have insights for NM.
Turns out it’s a messy proposition. First, although all the titles are part of the same demon invasion, the New Mutants/X-Terminators thread and the X-Men/X-Factor are able to be read mostly independently. Because they seem to be written as independent experiences, there’s no perfect sequence. Issues in different titles are happening simultaneously. While some elements are largely separate (Mr. Sinister is in X-Men and X-Factor, while Sym is in New Mutants and X-Terminators), Nashtirh bounces around between all the main titles. I’m not even sure there’s a timeline for him that makes sense. But if there is, it would involve reading a few pages from one title, than skipping to another title for a few pages, and so on. The clear sequencing does come into play in X-Men and X-Factor, when after starting with separate plot threads at the start of Inferno, one story the alternates between the two titles.
Simonson writes X-Terminators while Jon Bogdanove handles the pencils. Maybe it’s the inking, but I like his art here more than on his later X-Factor stint. The mini features some teenagers (Rusty, Skids, Boom-Boom, and Rictor) and younger kids (Artie & Leech) who at this point were supporting characters in X-Factor, plus a new kid named Taki/Whiz Kid. It’s cool to see the personalities and powers of some of these characters who will join the New Mutants first interact with the team. Though, I should note, Boom-Boom previously teamed with Sunspot and Warlock in Fallen Angels.
Inferno is the culmination of Illyana’s Limbo plotline that’s been regularly cropping up in New Mutants since NM #14. While some subplots (e.g., the Sam/Lila romance) only pop up occasionally, the looming Limbo threat has been one of the most ubiquitous plot threads of series, matched perhaps only by the Hellfire Club/Hellions or the Dani/Rahne bond. Its antecedents go back even further to the Limbo story in UXM #160 or Illyana’s kidnapping by Arcade which led to her living with the X-Men. So this is a big payoff. While its plot significance is immense, its execution is a few steps below. Like Doug’s death, I feel Simonson didn’t do enough to draw the characters’ connections to explore the full impact of events. Maybe we get a bit more of that in upcoming issues. I was glad though, that Simonson brought Colossus over for Illyana’s crucial story, and his temporary absence from the UXM/XF thread also serves that story well. Another shortcoming is that that magical woo-woo/deus ex machina/macguffins/etc. get so confusing that the significance of particularly points in Illyana’s struggle against Sym and Nashtirh isn’t clear. Although I’ve never read the story where adult Illyana returns, I do think the ambiguous way she is de-aged in Inferno lends itself to my vague sense of how she comes back.
For the most part, I liked the X-Terminators/New Mutants chapters of the story. As much as I liked the Uncanny X-Men and X-Factor parts of Inferno previously, my opinion declined a bit on this re-reading. It is cool to see the two teams’ pathways to crossover intersect and some portions of the dynamics between the two teams. But despite Claremont and Simonson being friends and a former writer/editor team, the way the story runs between the two titles is unexpectedly discordant. For example, a secret will be revealed in one title, only to be revealed again in the other title, as if the characters did previously learn that fact. Also, the characterizations clash. Simonson has been building the Jean/Scott relationship and embraces the opportunity that weaving Mr. Sinister into character origins can provide to explore Cyclops’s dysfunctional and fix how events with Madelyne damaged his character. Claremont, on the other hand, really seems pissed at how Layton’s X-Factor disrupted what he had done with Scott and Madelyne. Claremont seems to carry hatred toward Scott as if he’s a real person, and a terrible one at that. He doesn’t want to redeem Scott or mitigate or fix what Layton did. To Claremont, it seems Scott is a bad leader and a jerk and there’s no reason Jean would like him. There’s none of the warmth or cooperation between Scott and Jean that you see in Simonson’s writing.
There is really an effort to come up with a unifying backstory of Mr. Sinister, Madelyne, Scott, and Jean that explains a lot. For one thing, we have an actual answer for the X-Men never seem to have gotten the news that X-Factor aren’t actually mutant hunters! That would never work in the internet era. I also like Colossus being basically too pure to be corrupted by Inferno while all the other X-Men are affected.
One last thing: I’m not sure I have realized that the flame on the Inferno logo moves farther along as the event progresses.
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Post by dbutler69 on Apr 29, 2023 15:26:36 GMT -5
Still working my way through the Fantagraphics Popeye books... I was detoured for a while due to eye problems. What a hoot! The wordplay and characterizations are so well done! Not to mention the never-surpassed slapstick bigfoot cartooning... I just read the string of Sundays where Popeye fought a giant boxing gorilla. I laughed out loud, for real. You can’t do much better than 1930s Popeye comics. I’ve currently got a collection from the 1930s that starts with Popeye as king of Spinachova, then goes into the first appearance of Eugene the Jeep, then the start of the epic search for Poopdeck Pappy with the crew consisting of Olive, Wimpy, Swee’ Pea, Eugene, Alice the Goon, Toar and a goof named Oscar who makes me laugh every time he appears. Popeye has acquired a ship that turns out to be haunted, prompting Popeye to admit that he’s afraid of spiriks and ghosks. I am genuinely laughing out loud A LOT! I've never actually read a Popeye comic. I may have to check some out.
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Post by Hoosier X on Apr 29, 2023 16:22:07 GMT -5
You can’t do much better than 1930s Popeye comics. I’ve currently got a collection from the 1930s that starts with Popeye as king of Spinachova, then goes into the first appearance of Eugene the Jeep, then the start of the epic search for Poopdeck Pappy with the crew consisting of Olive, Wimpy, Swee’ Pea, Eugene, Alice the Goon, Toar and a goof named Oscar who makes me laugh every time he appears. Popeye has acquired a ship that turns out to be haunted, prompting Popeye to admit that he’s afraid of spiriks and ghosks. I am genuinely laughing out loud A LOT! I've never actually read a Popeye comic. I may have to check some out. If you have access to a good library system, you might be able to get some of the reprint volumes for EC Segar’s Popeye comics of the 1930s. He died fairly young, so there’s only about nine years of Segar Popeye comics.
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Apr 29, 2023 23:18:58 GMT -5
Yeah, the Fantagraphics Popeye set from 15 years ago or so is only 6 volumes, a very reasonable goal to complete, compared to IDW's Dick Tracy for example (29 volumes), and other classic newspaper reprint collections. Well, it would be reasonable other than the fact that volumes 5-6 are near impossible to find online for anything even close to a reasonable price ($250 each, f*** off). Oh well, at least I have volumes 1-4
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Post by Cei-U! on Apr 30, 2023 3:39:28 GMT -5
Yeah, the Fantagraphics Popeye set from 15 years ago or so is only 6 volumes, a very reasonable goal to complete, compared to IDW's Dick Tracy for example (29 volumes), and other classic newspaper reprint collections. Well, it would be reasonable other than the fact that volumes 5-6 are near impossible to find online for anything even close to a reasonable price ($250 each, f*** off). Oh well, at least I have volumes 1-4 There's an earlier set from Fantagraphics that is 11 volumes, 1-3 collecting the Sunday pages, 4-11 the dailies. I have the eight-volume daily books. The later, more expensive collection integrates the two in chronological order but, since the dailies and Sundays feature separate continuities, you may find it more economical to seek out the original releases.
Cei-U! I summons me spinach!
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Post by EdoBosnar on Apr 30, 2023 6:58:50 GMT -5
Much as I like the fact that Fantagraphics has been collecting and publishing all of these old comics (e.g., Popeye, Carl Barks' Disney ducks, Gottfredson's Mickey Mouse) in lovely HC editions, I think I'd prefer it if they had opted for more reasonably priced softcover books in the style of Marvel's Epic collections, or even those gigantic paperback compendiums that DC is doing.
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 30, 2023 7:45:15 GMT -5
I've never actually read a Popeye comic. I may have to check some out. If you have access to a good library system, you might be able to get some of the reprint volumes for EC Segar’s Popeye comics of the 1930s. He died fairly young, so there’s only about nine years of Segar Popeye comics. I started borrowing books from the library on an app for my tablet a few years ago. But stopped when I looked at my actual physical backlog in my home.
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Post by Calidore on Apr 30, 2023 9:01:24 GMT -5
Yeah, the Fantagraphics Popeye set from 15 years ago or so is only 6 volumes, a very reasonable goal to complete, compared to IDW's Dick Tracy for example (29 volumes), and other classic newspaper reprint collections. Well, it would be reasonable other than the fact that volumes 5-6 are near impossible to find online for anything even close to a reasonable price ($250 each, f*** off). Oh well, at least I have volumes 1-4 There's an earlier set from Fantagraphics that is 11 volumes, 1-3 collecting the Sunday pages, 4-11 the dailies. I have the eight-volume daily books. The later, more expensive collection integrates the two in chronological order but, since the dailies and Sundays feature separate continuities, you may find it more economical to seek out the original releases.
Cei-U! I summons me spinach!
I have that early set. The only downside is that the huge size of the Sunday reprint volumes made them hard to shelve.
Following up on my earlier post about pre-Popeye Thimble Theatre, I really appreciated that the reprints started way before Popeye appeared. I was just curious about TT in the years before that, whether the Castor/Olive/Ham adventures still hold up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2023 9:08:23 GMT -5
Yeah, the Fantagraphics Popeye set from 15 years ago or so is only 6 volumes, a very reasonable goal to complete, compared to IDW's Dick Tracy for example (29 volumes), and other classic newspaper reprint collections. Well, it would be reasonable other than the fact that volumes 5-6 are near impossible to find online for anything even close to a reasonable price ($250 each, f*** off). Oh well, at least I have volumes 1-4 That's the set we have (my daughter collected them all when they were in print). An absolute treasure, I was just thinking of doing a fresh read soon.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 30, 2023 9:47:07 GMT -5
I love the sheer volume of classic strip reprints available in the last decade or so. But that volume can get overwhelming, both to keep up with and to store. And if you miss something and it goes out of print it gets very very expensive.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2023 11:04:58 GMT -5
I love the sheer volume of classic strip reprints available in the last decade or so. But that volume can get overwhelming, both to keep up with and to store. And if you miss something and it goes out of print it gets very very expensive. I very much agree. I know there are economics driving how they go about releasing them, but in general I don't like to buy more content at a time than I actually have to time to read. When I feel the pressure to buy lots more because I'm worried it will go out of print, I feel underwater on being able to read and enjoy. I decided a while back just to try to stick to my rule of going a volume or two at a time, and if the rest go out of print, so be it. If I REALLY want it that bad later on, I'll pay the inflated aftermarket price on rare occasion, but for the most part I just try to enjoy what I can get for a reasonable price. I don't have to be a "completionist" on every property.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 30, 2023 12:05:16 GMT -5
I love the sheer volume of classic strip reprints available in the last decade or so. But that volume can get overwhelming, both to keep up with and to store. And if you miss something and it goes out of print it gets very very expensive. I very much agree. I know there are economics driving how they go about releasing them, but in general I don't like to buy more content at a time than I actually have to time to read. When I feel the pressure to buy lots more because I'm worried it will go out of print, I feel underwater on being able to read and enjoy. I decided a while back just to try to stick to my rule of going a volume or two at a time, and if the rest go out of print, so be it. If I REALLY want it that bad later on, I'll pay the inflated aftermarket price on rare occasion, but for the most part I just try to enjoy what I can get for a reasonable price. I don't have to be a "completionist" on every property. I do the same thing. I tend to haunt the Amazon Marketplace for super good deals. Which leads to me having huge holes in certain reprint lines (I'm looking at you, Little Orphan Annie and Dick Tracy). But I'm okay with that.
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Post by tartanphantom on Apr 30, 2023 12:35:35 GMT -5
I very much agree. I know there are economics driving how they go about releasing them, but in general I don't like to buy more content at a time than I actually have to time to read. When I feel the pressure to buy lots more because I'm worried it will go out of print, I feel underwater on being able to read and enjoy. I decided a while back just to try to stick to my rule of going a volume or two at a time, and if the rest go out of print, so be it. If I REALLY want it that bad later on, I'll pay the inflated aftermarket price on rare occasion, but for the most part I just try to enjoy what I can get for a reasonable price. I don't have to be a "completionist" on every property. I do the same thing. I tend to haunt the Amazon Marketplace for super good deals. Which leads to me having huge holes in certain reprint lines (I'm looking at you, Little Orphan Annie and Dick Tracy). But I'm okay with that.
Holes as huge as pupil-less eyes, I would imagine.
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