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Post by tolworthy on Feb 18, 2016 19:29:40 GMT -5
I like beginning-middle-end series that are finite and show real growth, but those are almost always personal stories that are most likely creator-owned series. To take this to the logical conclusion, if we posit that the FF's problem is a lack of change and new ideas, or any series for that matter, you have to have some kind of end-point. Certainly if they're not going to age. Of course, we don't get new ideas because of the lessons Kirby learned toward the end of his FF run. Who's going to give Marvel something of value for free in today's climate? I agree. Though I probably have an unusual approach because of my religious background. I study the FF in the same way I study the Bible: I want a huge story, a multi-generational epic about not just individuals but about dynasties. I want to read about the Ff in the same way I read about ancient Rome or Elizabethan England or the Hyborean age. Yes, individual heroes die, and some will age first. But in doing so they become ever bigger, ever more legendary. I want heroes like Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar or Ghandi, only ramped up to an even higher level. I want to be breathlessly excited about their lives, to he horrified and distressed by their deaths, but to see them live on through their children. I want them to be immortal through their memory and deeds, not because they just refuse to take risks and become ossified. I want a story that is bigger than any one person, and that makes the people who began the story into veritable gods. I want my comics huge and deep and dramatic and epic and real. Surely that's not too much to ask.  |
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Post by sabongero on Feb 18, 2016 19:31:28 GMT -5
Good grief, I didn't intend such a long reply!
That was a FANTASTIC reply of yours tolworthy, no pun intended. Okay maybe it was intended. I found your lengthy reply a FANTASTIC read. I am looking forward to more informative and lengthy posts from you regarding comic books. Kudos to you and thanks for sharing your insightful thoughts. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Feb 18, 2016 19:49:32 GMT -5
I like beginning-middle-end series that are finite and show real growth, but those are almost always personal stories that are most likely creator-owned series. To take this to the logical conclusion, if we posit that the FF's problem is a lack of change and new ideas, or any series for that matter, you have to have some kind of end-point. Certainly if they're not going to age. Of course, we don't get new ideas because of the lessons Kirby learned toward the end of his FF run. Who's going to give Marvel something of value for free in today's climate? I agree. Though I probably have an unusual approach because of my religious background. I study the FF in the same way I study the Bible: I want a huge story, a multi-generational epic about not just individuals but about dynasties. I want to read about the Ff in the same way I read about ancient Rome or Elizabethan England or the Hyborean age. Yes, individual heroes die, and some will age first. But in doing so they become ever bigger, ever more legendary. I want heroes like Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar or Ghandi, only ramped up to an even higher level. I want to be breathlessly excited about their lives, to he horrified and distressed by their deaths, but to see them live on through their children. I want them to be immortal through their memory and deeds, not because they just refuse to take risks and become ossified. I want a story that is bigger than any one person, and that makes the people who began the story into veritable gods. I want my comics huge and deep and dramatic and epic and real. Surely that's not too much to ask. I love history just as much, but do you REALLY want that from superhero comics?  It would be interesting if superhero comics never adopted the ageless conceit and instead allowed characters to live, and die, in more or less real-time, like in Byrne's Generations series. I admit that it might be healthier for the genre if Spider-Man retired in the late 80's before he hit 40 and passed on the mantle to a new hero, but the realities of the characters being corporate IP prevent that from ever fully happening. Of course you then would only have a finite time and window to experience great characters. My perspective has always been to treat superheroes as I do great comic strip and cartoon characters; it's not about personal growth, it's about the overarching themes. I view them as archetypes that represent and symbolize different facets of real human beings, not necessarily characters meant to move through their reality as a real human being would. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 18, 2016 19:59:45 GMT -5
I agree. Though I probably have an unusual approach because of my religious background. I study the FF in the same way I study the Bible: I want a huge story, a multi-generational epic about not just individuals but about dynasties. I want to read about the Ff in the same way I read about ancient Rome or Elizabethan England or the Hyborean age. Yes, individual heroes die, and some will age first. But in doing so they become ever bigger, ever more legendary. I want heroes like Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar or Ghandi, only ramped up to an even higher level. I want to be breathlessly excited about their lives, to he horrified and distressed by their deaths, but to see them live on through their children. I want them to be immortal through their memory and deeds, not because they just refuse to take risks and become ossified. I want a story that is bigger than any one person, and that makes the people who began the story into veritable gods. I want my comics huge and deep and dramatic and epic and real. Surely that's not too much to ask. I love history just as much, but do you REALLY want that from superhero comics? It would be interesting if superhero comics never adopted the ageless conceit and instead allowed characters to live, and die, in more or less real-time, like in Byrne's Generations series. I admit that it might be healthier for the genre if Spider-Man retired in the late 80's before he hit 40 and passed on the mantle to a new hero, but the realities of the characters being corporate IP prevent that from ever fully happening. Of course you then would only have a finite time and window to experience great characters. My perspective has always been to treat superheroes as I do great comic strip and cartoon characters; it's not about personal growth, it's about the overarching themes. I view them as archetypes that represent and symbolize different facets of real human beings, not necessarily characters meant to move through their reality as a real human being would. This is basically my take exactly - novels, tv, creator owned comics with the potential of an end-date can deliver significant character growth over long periods of time. But Marvel and DC Comics? Nah. What's interesting to me is seeing what specific creators consider the core themes of a specific feature, and how they relate to those core themes. And, honestly, I tend to prefer Captain America-type characters where every new creator comes in, creates a completely new character with a completely new personality only tenuously connected to anything that has gone before, and calls him "Captain America." The idea of "Captain America" is so broad that it can be retooled to any writers specific themes and interests, and the fans never seem to mind. (or even notice.) |
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 18, 2016 20:23:54 GMT -5
I think what killed the FF for me was that Valeria was brought back. Her connection to Dr. Doom and her being smarter than Reed were concepts which I hated.
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Post by tolworthy on Feb 18, 2016 20:27:22 GMT -5
I love history just as much, but do you REALLY want that from superhero comics? Yes! But possibly nobody else does. To be fair, I'm not really a fan of superhero comics. I am a fan of certain stories, and one of them features people who happen to have super powers. But if they lost hem I don't think I'd miss it. Of course you then would only have a finite time and window to experience great characters. I see it the opposite way. If stories last forever then they are reprinted forever. Everybody has everything. After all, the window to enjoy Shakespeare has not closed. My perspective has always been to treat superheroes as I do great comic strip and cartoon characters; it's not about personal growth, it's about the overarching themes. I view them as archetypes that represent and symbolize different facets of real human beings, not necessarily characters meant to move through their reality as a real human being would. Fair point. But why not have both? After all, the Greek hero Heracles is the archetype of strength, that works. Yet seeing how he grew older, married and died tells us more about strength than simply "hey, I can divert a river." And then, once dead, Heracles' mantle was taken by Philoctetes who went to on to fight on the Trojan wars, which added its own archetypes like Helen and Hector. And the Trojan wars led (said Virgil) to Rome, which brought us the archetype of Caesar. it's a huge, amazing network of archetypal lives. When comics give me less I feel short changed. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 18, 2016 20:33:19 GMT -5
I love history just as much, but do you REALLY want that from superhero comics? Yes! But possibly nobody else does. To be fair, I'm not really a fan of superhero comics. I am a fan of certain stories, and one of them features people who happen to have super powers. But if they lost hem I don't think I'd miss it. Of course you then would only have a finite time and window to experience great characters. I see it the opposite way. If stories last forever then they are reprinted forever. Everybody has everything. After all, the window to enjoy Shakespeare has not closed. My perspective has always been to treat superheroes as I do great comic strip and cartoon characters; it's not about personal growth, it's about the overarching themes. I view them as archetypes that represent and symbolize different facets of real human beings, not necessarily characters meant to move through their reality as a real human being would. Fair point. But why not have both? After all, the Greek hero Heracles is the archetype of strength, that works. Yet seeing how he grew older, married and died tells us more about strength than simply "hey, I can divert a river." And then, once dead, Heracles' mantle was taken by Philoctetes who went to on to fight on the Trojan wars, which added its own archetypes like Helen and Hector. And the Trojan wars led (said Virgil) to Rome, which brought us the archetype of Caesar. it's a huge, amazing network of archetypal lives. When comics give me less I feel short changed. It's common practice in the Comic industry to squeeze the life out of each concept until there's nothing else to say. There is a Finite window for all these characters. |
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Post by sabongero on Feb 18, 2016 20:38:10 GMT -5
It's common practice in the Comic industry to squeeze the life out of each concept until there's nothing else to say. There is a Finite window for all these characters. Almost every long time comic book reader, myself included, would agree with your assessment. There is almost no original concept left for them to create, so it is basically just rehashing previous concepts with a new approach, or a new direction, or a twist to that concept, in order to make come across as somewhat fresh. Speaking of concepts, may I ask you your top 10 what Fantastic Four concepts in your opinion has been squeezed the life out of by Marvel? To anyone else, please feel free to add your opinion on your own top 10 Fantastic Four concepts that Marvel has squeezed the life out of over the years and decades. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 18, 2016 20:43:40 GMT -5
It's common practice in the Comic industry to squeeze the life out of each concept until there's nothing else to say. There is a Finite window for all these characters. Almost every long time comic book reader, myself included, would agree with your assessment. There is almost no original concept left for them to create, so it is basically just rehashing previous concepts with a new approach, or a new direction, or a twist to that concept, in order to make come across as somewhat fresh. Speaking of concepts, may I ask you your top 10 what Fantastic Four concepts in your opinion has been squeezed the life out of by Marvel? To anyone else, please feel free to add your opinion on your own top 10 Fantastic Four concepts that Marvel has squeezed the life out of over the years and decades. 1. How many times can they beat Dr. Doom ? 2. The Thing loses his form and becomes Ben Grimm 3. Here comes Galactus again Maybe I've read too many superhero comics. That's why I've started reading Love and Rockets , Cerebus and Usagi Yojimbo. |
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Post by sabongero on Feb 18, 2016 20:57:36 GMT -5
Almost every long time comic book reader, myself included, would agree with your assessment. There is almost no original concept left for them to create, so it is basically just rehashing previous concepts with a new approach, or a new direction, or a twist to that concept, in order to make come across as somewhat fresh. Speaking of concepts, may I ask you your top 10 what Fantastic Four concepts in your opinion has been squeezed the life out of by Marvel? To anyone else, please feel free to add your opinion on your own top 10 Fantastic Four concepts that Marvel has squeezed the life out of over the years and decades. 1. How many times can they beat Dr. Doom ? 2. The Thing loses his form and becomes Ben Grimm 3. Here comes Galactus again Maybe I've read too many superhero comics. That's why I've started reading Love and Rockets , Cerebus and Usagi Yojimbo. I've just recently gotten back to reading comics again, after a very long hiatus of non-reading and non-exposure to comic books from late 1988 to 2006/2007 and then a mini hibernation of non-reading of comic books since 2009/2010. I just started reading, or more like back-reading a lot of stories. Even though I still enjoy reading the superhero genre, I do find that I am more a fan of reading a series like 100 Bullets, Scalped, Y The Last Man, Mike Carey's Lucifer, Sleeper, Brubaker's Criminal various series, Velvet, and other non-superheroes comic books/trades/graphic novels. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 18, 2016 21:00:29 GMT -5
When it comes to the Fantastic Four, "I'll always have Paris". Nothing can take away the books from me that I have in my home. But unlike Tolworthy, I think it got canceled after they killed the Torch in # 587.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Feb 18, 2016 21:17:21 GMT -5
For me, Walt Simonson's run was the last time it all felt like the FF. The only thing wrong with Simonson's run was that it was too short. I will say that I enjoyed the first three issues of the Heroes Return FF by Alan Davis and Scott Lobdell and feel that that team had a lot of promise. Claremont came on the book with #4. I'm a big Claremont X-Men fan, but I never felt he fully understood the FF.
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Post by sabongero on Feb 18, 2016 21:21:33 GMT -5
I remember reading a three-parter where the comic book was from the early 90's. It had Spider-Man, Ghost Rider, Wolverine, and Grey Hulk as the new Fantastic Four for a few issues. I forgot what the story was about, but remember it was nice to look visually with Todd McFarlane I think illustrating the book. But that foursome was a nice combination, and would have been something I would have definitely read if it was an ongoing team with those four as a group.
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Post by sabongero on Feb 18, 2016 21:23:29 GMT -5
For me, Walt Simonson's run was the last time it all felt like the FF. The only thing wrong with Simonson's run was that it was too short. I will say that I enjoyed the first three issues of the Heroes Return FF by Alan Davis and Scott Lobdell and feel that that team had a lot of promise. Claremont came on the book with #4. I'm a big Claremont X-Men fan, but I never felt he fully understood the FF. I didn't even know Walt Simonson took over the helm of this book. Perhaps I can come across it some time to read. I always had a special place for Walt Simonson's Thor run. I loved Beta Ray Thor (Issue #337 & 338 were one of my most prized possession as a kid) and Thor Frog during that era. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 18, 2016 21:32:55 GMT -5
I remember reading a three-parter where the comic book was from the early 90's. It had Spider-Man, Ghost Rider, Wolverine, and Grey Hulk as the new Fantastic Four for a few issues. I forgot what the story was about, but remember it was nice to look visually with Todd McFarlane I think illustrating the book. But that foursome was a nice combination, and would have been something I would have definitely read if it was an ongoing team with those four as a group. That book was drawn by Art Adams. |
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