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Post by tolworthy on Mar 4, 2016 11:22:42 GMT -5
Well since you ask... ARE YOU LISTENING, MARVEL? 1. Perez and Rude.First send two bucketloads of money to the houses of George Perez and Steve Rude. One will draw the main story, one the backup story (to ensure no monthly delays). 2. A real adventure writer.Next, spend some time on the "goodreads" site to find an adventure writer with broad range. We want somebody who knows how to write exciting stories that are NOT limited to conventional superheroes. We want somebody bursting with ideas, a polymath with knowledge of science, ancient history, politics, theology, etc. Someone with RANGE: they must have proven ability to can write rip roaring page turners featuring young teenagers, old women, and different cultures. 3. Think long term sales.Visit the accountants and slap them around until they agree to measure this book on the amount of reprints they can sell after ten years. They should NOT, under ANY circumstances, judge this book on initial sales. We want something with real, lasting value. If step two was done right then this should not be a problem. The accountants need to be looking for a billion dollar franchise that will increase in value over decades, so money is not a problem. 4. Time the readers.If the average reader takes less than 20 minutes to read an issue, or if they cannot find pleasure in re-reading it at least twice in the first month, go back to step 2 and try again. 5. The formula for success:Since the new writer will probably know nothing of current superhero comics (at least, if they have any taste) show them the formula that Stan Lee gave in Fantastic Four issue 9. "Incredible exploits and down to earth realism". That is all you need for a great comic. All the editor should care about is that they alternate between these as quickly and in an extreme a way as possible. Beyond that, leave them alone. Fantastic Four issue 44 is the perfect example of how to do it right (first Sinnott issue, first Inhumans, every page is a masterclass). 6. The editor's jobThe editor's only job (beyond checking the basic formula, which a good adventure writer will tend to use anyway) is to connect with the readers. If the new writer goes off in some weird direction ensure that new readers are not lost. If Marvel bosses say "you can't do X" then tough luck for them, they have to just accept it. If readers wonder about continuity with other comics encourage them to find solutions. Basically smooth the way for the writer to do whatever they feel is best. Again, item 2 is the key - it might take a long time to get item 2 right, but it will be worth it. That's about it really. I could extend the list by anther ten items, but I think they will all follow naturally if we get these six items right. Oh, and it should feature the Fantastic Four in the real world, moving in real time. But that's just me.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 4, 2016 11:37:55 GMT -5
Well since you ask... ARE YOU LISTENING, MARVEL? 1. Perez and Rude.First send two bucketloads of money to the houses of George Perez and Steve Rude. One will draw the main story, one the backup story (to ensure no monthly delays). 2. A real adventure writer.Next, spend some time on the "goodreads" site to find an adventure writer with broad range. We want somebody who knows how to write exciting stories that are NOT limited to conventional superheroes. We want somebody bursting with ideas, a polymath with knowledge of science, ancient history, politics, theology, etc. Someone with RANGE: they must have proven ability to can write rip roaring page turners featuring young teenagers, old women, and different cultures. 3. Think long term sales.Visit the accountants and slap them around until they agree to measure this book on the amount of reprints they can sell after ten years. They should NOT, under ANY circumstances, judge this book on initial sales. We want something with real, lasting value. If step two was done right then this should not be a problem. The accountants need to be looking for a billion dollar franchise that will increase in value over decades, so money is not a problem. 4. Time the readers.If the average reader takes less than 20 minutes to read an issue, or if they cannot find pleasure in re-reading it at least twice in the first month, go back to step 2 and try again. 5. The formula for success:Since the new writer will probably know nothing of current superhero comics (at least, if they have any taste) show them the formula that Stan Lee gave in Fantastic Four issue 9. "Incredible exploits and down to earth realism". That is all you need for a great comic. All the editor should care about is that they alternate between these as quickly and in an extreme a way as possible. Beyond that, leave them alone. Fantastic Four issue 44 is the perfect example of how to do it right (first Sinnott issue, first Inhumans, every page is a masterclass). 6. The editor's jobThe editor's only job (beyond checking the basic formula, which a good adventure writer will tend to use anyway) is to connect with the readers. If the new writer goes off in some weird direction ensure that new readers are not lost. If Marvel bosses say "you can't do X" then tough luck for them, they have to just accept it. If readers wonder about continuity with other comics encourage them to find solutions. Basically smooth the way for the writer to do whatever they feel is best. Again, item 2 is the key - it might take a long time to get item 2 right, but it will be worth it. That's about it really. I could extend the list by anther ten items, but I think they will all follow naturally if we get these six items right. Oh, and it should feature the Fantastic Four in the real world, moving in real time. But that's just me. Eh... But don't you already have those comics? This was more about what kind of new stuff and which qualities would you require in new ideal comics
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Post by tolworthy on Mar 4, 2016 13:08:29 GMT -5
That's like asking "why do you want living friends? Don't you have your memories of dead friends?" The last line was because I am a fan of the FF. Te first is because I like their work. But the rest describes common themes in all my favourite novels, movies, legends, comics, etc. As for already having FF work by Steve Rude, he only drew one issue, an that was out of continuity ("World's Greatest" issue 12), plus a short backup on volume 3 issue 50. I suppose you're right, that should be enough for any fan. I am just being greedy.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 4, 2016 13:20:40 GMT -5
That's like asking "why do you want living friends? Don't you have your memories of dead friends?" The last line was because I am a fan of the FF. Te first is because I like their work. But the rest describes common themes in all my favourite novels, movies, legends, comics, etc. As for already having FF work by Steve Rude, he only drew one issue, an that was out of continuity ("World's Greatest" issue 12), plus a short backup on volume 3 issue 50. I suppose you're right, that should be enough for any fan. I am just being greedy. I know what you mean, no worries. But When I find myself missing the early Hellblazer issues, the feeling of those early Sandman issues, the perfection of old Alex Toth comics, I realize those also are a product of their time and couldn't be created today. Which is why I'm wondering what is the current best I/we can expect.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 4, 2016 13:24:21 GMT -5
That's like asking "why do you want living friends? Don't you have your memories of dead friends?" The last line was because I am a fan of the FF. Te first is because I like their work. But the rest describes common themes in all my favourite novels, movies, legends, comics, etc. As for already having FF work by Steve Rude, he only drew one issue, an that was out of continuity ("World's Greatest" issue 12), plus a short backup on volume 3 issue 50. I suppose you're right, that should be enough for any fan. I am just being greedy. I know what you mean, no worries. But When I find myself missing the early Hellblazer issues, the feeling of those early Sandman issues, the perfection of old Alex Toth comics, I realize those also are a product of their time and couldn't be created today. Which is why I'm wondering what is the current best I/we can expect. You have a point. I glanced through the new Neal Adams Superman mini and he's a shadow of himself. We'll always have Paris.
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Post by tolworthy on Mar 4, 2016 14:21:55 GMT -5
True. But I wonder how much of that is realism setting in? I think there comes a time in every great artist's life when they say "I have nothing left to prove, why not just make money?" See Robert De Niro's later comedies for example. Plus I imagine that comics can suck your enthusiasm after a while (see Kirby, Alan Moore et al). But if a creator can be persuaded that this project is their final legacy... Also, something I like about Rude and Perez is that they seem genuinely dedicated to improving their craft.
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Post by DubipR on Mar 4, 2016 15:44:13 GMT -5
Give Waid & Samnee's Black Widow a shot. First issue came out this week. Solid. If you enjoyed their run on Daredevil, try this.
And when it comes out, I'm praying to Kirby that DC doesn't eff up Future Quest and let Parker & Shaner do their thing...
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 4, 2016 16:32:43 GMT -5
True. But I wonder how much of that is realism setting in? I think there comes a time in every great artist's life when they say "I have nothing left to prove, why not just make money?" See Robert De Niro's later comedies for example. Plus I imagine that comics can suck your enthusiasm after a while (see Kirby, Alan Moore et al). But if a creator can be persuaded that this project is their final legacy... Also, something I like about Rude and Perez is that they seem genuinely dedicated to improving their craft. The sad truth is that usually an artists work quality diminishes as he get's older. The only artist, off hand , that I think improved with age is George Perez. Rude is consistent with his best stuff, but the rest ( Starlin, Kirby, Adams,Byrne) they all began to become caricatures of themselves. No disrespect intended to them, I still buy all of Starlins work.
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Post by coke & comics on Mar 5, 2016 5:30:24 GMT -5
True. But I wonder how much of that is realism setting in? I think there comes a time in every great artist's life when they say "I have nothing left to prove, why not just make money?" See Robert De Niro's later comedies for example. Plus I imagine that comics can suck your enthusiasm after a while (see Kirby, Alan Moore et al). But if a creator can be persuaded that this project is their final legacy... Also, something I like about Rude and Perez is that they seem genuinely dedicated to improving their craft. The sad truth is that usually an artists work quality diminishes as he get's older. The only artist, off hand , that I think improved with age is George Perez. Rude is consistent with his best stuff, but the rest ( Starlin, Kirby, Adams,Byrne) they all began to become caricatures of themselves. No disrespect intended to them, I still buy all of Starlins work. Kirby seems a strange one to put into that category. He created the Eternals 35 years after Captain America. So he was still at his creative height in his last decade as an artist.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 5, 2016 7:38:40 GMT -5
The sad truth is that usually an artists work quality diminishes as he get's older. The only artist, off hand , that I think improved with age is George Perez. Rude is consistent with his best stuff, but the rest ( Starlin, Kirby, Adams,Byrne) they all began to become caricatures of themselves. No disrespect intended to them, I still buy all of Starlins work. Kirby seems a strange one to put into that category. He created the Eternals 35 years after Captain America. So he was still at his creative height in his last decade as an artist. I meant just the artwork, not his concepts.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Mar 5, 2016 8:47:25 GMT -5
True. But I wonder how much of that is realism setting in? I think there comes a time in every great artist's life when they say "I have nothing left to prove, why not just make money?" See Robert De Niro's later comedies for example. Plus I imagine that comics can suck your enthusiasm after a while (see Kirby, Alan Moore et al). But if a creator can be persuaded that this project is their final legacy... Also, something I like about Rude and Perez is that they seem genuinely dedicated to improving their craft. The sad truth is that usually an artists work quality diminishes as he get's older. The only artist, off hand , that I think improved with age is George Perez. Rude is consistent with his best stuff, but the rest ( Starlin, Kirby, Adams,Byrne) they all began to become caricatures of themselves. No disrespect intended to them, I still buy all of Starlins work. Some do, some don't. I'd put forward Mike Mignola, Guy Davis, Stan Sakai, Jackson Guice, Paul Gulacy, and even all time greats like Will Eisner, Joe Kubert and John Severin as artist that all got better as they aged.
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Post by coke & comics on Mar 5, 2016 15:04:57 GMT -5
Kirby seems a strange one to put into that category. He created the Eternals 35 years after Captain America. So he was still at his creative height in his last decade as an artist. I meant just the artwork, not his concepts. Same comment as regards Eternals. I haven't really read his Pacific Comics work, but Eternals really seems to be near enough the end of his career.
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Post by coke & comics on Mar 5, 2016 15:06:26 GMT -5
The sad truth is that usually an artists work quality diminishes as he get's older. The only artist, off hand , that I think improved with age is George Perez. Rude is consistent with his best stuff, but the rest ( Starlin, Kirby, Adams,Byrne) they all began to become caricatures of themselves. No disrespect intended to them, I still buy all of Starlins work. Some do, some don't. I'd put forward Mike Mignola, Guy Davis, Stan Sakai, Jackson Guice, Paul Gulacy, and even all time greats like Will Eisner, Joe Kubert and John Severin as artist that all got better as they aged. I can't agree about Gulacy. I love his work on Master of Kung Fu in the '70s and Legends of the Dark Knight in the '90s, but his return to both in the 2000s looked extremely off to me.
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Post by berkley on Mar 5, 2016 17:08:12 GMT -5
Some do, some don't. I'd put forward Mike Mignola, Guy Davis, Stan Sakai, Jackson Guice, Paul Gulacy, and even all time greats like Will Eisner, Joe Kubert and John Severin as artist that all got better as they aged. I can't agree about Gulacy. I love his work on Master of Kung Fu in the '70s and Legends of the Dark Knight in the '90s, but his return to both in the 2000s looked extremely off to me. I think there was some drop-off but haven't found it as bad as you have - I'd still buy be tempted to buy a comic for the Gulacy artwork. It depends on the inker to a large extent, for me. I never thought Palmiotti's inks meshed well with Gulacy, for example, though I hate to say it because I think I read somewhere that they're buddies. But yes, there is a stiffness to some of his 2000s work that wasn't there before. I'm going by a fairly small sample size, though, and haven't seen anything recent so I'm hoping it was just a temporary blip.
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Post by coke & comics on Mar 6, 2016 16:40:04 GMT -5
There are many books out there currently that are good (and a lot of them have been mentioned) but for me, I lean in a different direction-the books I would consider to be best taking advantage of the current zeitgeist/paradigm in comics are books that have been there awhile but have usually been on the forefront of what is new and exciting-and that is anthologies like Heavy Metal and Dark Horse Presents. These are books that allow creators to tell stories they are excited about-whether it is a one off eight pager or a long form serialized story like Carla Speed McNeil continuing to tell her Finder story in the pages of DHP. They are books that give a lot of bang for your buck in terms of story and content pages, but if a story doesn't resonate with you, the entire purchase is not a waste of money because there is likely to be something else in the story that does. I've described elsewhere how I think the big 2 should use this kind of format-it creates a meatier product that has a better entertainment/cost ratio than a monthly 20 content page comic. And if the selling point for the big 2 is shared sandbox universes, the bigger anthology format allows them to market that regularly without needing tentpole events and cross-overs to be able to do so. Another move for modern comics I like was the deal Brubaker made with Image-a 5 year window to produce whatever books he wants and they will publish them. The deal emerged out of Fatale and Velvet and has produced more Criminal and The Fade Out (with the next book likely to be announced at the ImageExpo at Emerald City). This allows creators to tell the story they want to tell without the pressure of having to either bloat it to keep a series going or shrink it to fit into a set number of issues (usually 4 or 6) to be a mini-series. I want stories that have a beginning, middle and end, that come to a satisfying conclusion, whether that takes 8 pages or 8 issues or 20 years of issues. I prefer stories have artistic continuity as well as authorial continuity, so I prefer to see formats and publication frequency that allows that. Whether it's parts of stories monthly in an anthology, a single OGN album each year, 10 mostly monthly issues in a year or what have you. I like a lot of different genres, creators, characters or what not in comics, but what I am always looking for are good stories that appeal to me that are well told. My ideal comic is format, frequency, and creative/publication arrangements that allow that to happen. There is no 1 correct way for that to happen for all publishers or content creators. My ideal would be an industry and market that allows these stories to be produced and released in the manner that best allows them to be told well. But for me, the path I would like to see is that the parts of the stories that are released as serials be done so as parts of anthologies then the completed longer form stories collected and released as trades/hardcovers either as complete works or as regular released volumes for the really long form stories. If Image say produced a monthly equivalent of say Weird Science that had a chapter of Saga, a chapter of Black Science, a couple of 8 page shorts, a chapter of Lazarus etc. one month and if Saga needed a month off for the end of an arc say, something else was put in the feature slot for that month, etc. then when the arcs are complete (or the full story complete) issue a volume of Lazarus, a volumes of Saga, etc. They could then also have something the equivalent of Weird Tales that maybe has a chapter of Five Ghosts, a chapter of Wytches, Outcast, shorts etc. that does the same thing, making each monthly anthology a genre collection or go the DHP route and just mix and match content. Heavy Metal does 112 pages for $7.99 so even if Image used the $9.99 price point for 100-120 pages of content it would still be more entertainment value for your dollar than a monthly $3-4 comic and allow more eyes to get on stories that might otherwise get overlooked, plus still generate content for the trades which are the evergreen revenue producers for both the creators and the publishers. It allows stories/series that might need a little time to build an audience to be put out there without having the burden of carrying a series that sells enough right off the bat, allowing it to grow organically. However, I realize these books are a hard sell in the current direct market, because that's a lot to do with the distributor dictating to creators and publishers what works for them and the cart being in front of the horse. It's also letting the shrinking niche market customer base dictate the format and content of the stories and retard the potential growth of the overall industry. The perfect book for 2016 is one that tells good stories and pushes the growth of the market outside the tiny cesspool of the direct market into a larger pool of potential readers and customers. Comics are in a vicious circle right now-price, format and availability are the biggest obstacles to growth, but the small size of the niche market buyers keeps print runs smaller making prices higher-higher print runs would allow economy of scale to kick in and lower production costs and allow profitability at lower price points, lower prices would allow for better sales which would make it more attractive to other sales outlets increasing availability, but that would necessitate changes in format for the new market venues-but as long as the industry aims product squarely at the niche market, they create the very problems that keep them from growing and perpetuate the increases in price that plague the niche market. The more prices rise, the less units sell requiring higher prices fueling fewer sales and eventually that affects viability of product leading to fewer outlets and less availability. It's happened with almost every hobby product over the last 30 years and the cycle is in motion in comics. Trumpets sales growth in dollars in percentages less than the percentage increase of cover price only mask the issue of a shrinking customer base. So, the perfect book would be books that can break that vicious cycle while delivering strong story and art content. -M Funny you should mention anthologies: Broken Frontier
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